Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[ladelfina]

Texarkandy, are you blaming the immigrants, or the union-busting of the plants?

(NOT saying this applies to you, but frequently the same people who complain about immigrants driving wages down also complain about unions driving wages up.)

Just read in the Economist how Microsoft is putting a new s/w development campus up in Canada... because Canada... is easier on immigrants!! Those are high-wage and, esp. in Canada, high-tax jobs that the US isn't getting.

Just read, too, that 54 Burmese workers just suffocated to death in a truck headed for Thailand.

Also, you don't have to be a criminal to get deported, even if you are a legal immigrant.. a small thing like not reporting a change of address w/in ten days can result in deportation. (They don't tell you this.. you have to go search out the rules.) If you run out to the store w/o your green card and are stopped that in itself is a misdemeanor.. so again. grounds for deportation. People had always been issued permanent cards with no expiration date. Then a year or so ago they changed the rules (again, you'd have to go looking for this..) such that EVERYone had to reapply (cost=$370) for NEW cards with expiration dates even if you'd been issued your non-expiry card just the day before. IF you neglected to constantly monitor the changing laws are blithely going around minding your own business thinking you're all set with your formerly-perfectly-valid non-expiry card.. well now you've automatically broken the law => deportation.

Plus, the whole process just takes too long. 4 years was 10% of DH's life.. then to be eligible to apply for citizenship is an extra 3 to 5 years.. so we're at nine years!! Then who knows how long it takes for the bureaucracy to grind on that..

Here, WAGS.. take a gander at this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/us/24vets.html

Feyad Mohammed, an immigrant from Trinidad and Tobago who lives with his parents in Richmond Hill, Queens, was naturalized last month — four years after he filed the first of four citizenship applications, and six months after his honorable discharge from the Army as a sergeant.

Mr. Mohammed first applied in 2004, after he returned from the first of his two tours in Iraq. But the application seemed to have been lost; when he checked after a few months, he said, no one at the immigration service could tell him where it was or even if it had been received. He filed again in 2005, but missed his interview several months later; it had been scheduled in Iraq, during his second combat tour, but he was home on leave on the appointed day.

After he was discharged in July 2007, Mr. Mohammed filed another application. The paperwork was returned because he had not included a check covering the processing fee, he said, ignoring a Bush administration initiative that exempts combat veterans from application fees for up to a year after discharge. It was then that Mr. Mohammed reached out to Senator Schumer’s office, which helped him file a fourth, and final, time.
...

But Sergeant Frederick, a 21-year-old immigrant from Trinidad, would be awarded citizenship only posthumously, on the day of his burial. He is one of more than 90 immigrant service members to be naturalized after losing their lives in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Good enough to fight and die for the US, to be given weapons and trusted with the lives of fellow soldiers.. but to be a full-fledged citizen..? ehhh we'll get back to you.


P.S. I'm harping on the green cards just because that's my sphere of limited experience and it just shows how slow and inefficient the gov. is in dealing with LEGAL immigrants (like the poor soldiers above). It's shameful. And the longer and harder and more capricious the road is.. the more incentive there is to take shortcuts. I think I said elsewhere.. it may be illegal to run a red light.. but few among us wouldn't sneak through an intersection if the red light lasted half an hour, much less several years.

P.P.S. to Caroline.. just wanted to say I loved your post that pointed out the absurdities of immigration/citizenship policies worldwide.
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...3&postcount=20
everyone should read this if they haven't already..

[bright eyed]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

Do you really think many Americans have a problem identifying if someone was not raised in the US?

However, without asking, then usually inability to speak English is a good indicator in most places. Not proof of course - but an indicator and basis for further inquiry into citizenship & immigration status.

As for non-Hispanics, well Europeans tend to stick out like a sore thumb in America, as do most Africans. "Hi sir, I couldn't help but notice that's an interesting accent you have there - where you from?"

Seriously? wow - what does having an accent and not being raised in the US have to do with citizenship?

That get's the ignorant post of the day award...

[youbet]

I wonder how much more efficiently the immigration and naturalization folks could deploy their resources if they weren't overwhelmed by millions of folks already in the country illegally?

The IRS seems to have the answer. They audit a tiny percentage of tax returns and prosecute the fraudelent ones harshly enough that they achieve fairly good compliance. If instead of doing that all along, they acted like the immigration and naturalization folks, there would now be millions and millions of folks illegally not filing income taxes and the IRS trying to figure out how to play catch-up and get folks to comply.

[ladelfina]

Seriously? wow - what does having an accent and not being raised in the US have to do with citizenship?

That get's the ignorant post of the day award...

yeh.. plus "basis for further inquiry".. turns the US into a kind of Soviet-client spy state where everyone's encouraged to rat people out.

We are going to see more harassment citizen activism like this:
Store owner asks to see shoppers' Social Security cards | Rhode Island news | Rhode Island news | projo.com | The Providence Journal

As owner David C. Richardson was ringing up Genao’s $18 purchase, he demanded to see their Social Security cards.
...
“I wanted to see the Social Security number from the one who wasn’t speaking English,” said Richardson. “I just kind of mentioned I’d like to see his Social Security card. And he kinda balked. He left and walked out the door.” When the friend returned to urge Genao to leave, Richardson added, “he started to speak in English. That surprised me.”

[Wags]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Texarkandy, are you blaming the immigrants, or the union-busting of the plants?


(NOT saying this applies to you, but frequently the same people who complain about immigrants driving wages down also complain about unions driving wages up.)

Just read in the Economist how Microsoft is putting a new s/w development campus up in Canada... because Canada... is easier on immigrants!! Those are high-wage and, esp. in Canada, high-tax jobs that the US isn't getting.

Just read, too, that 54 Burmese workers just suffocated to death in a truck headed for Thailand.

Also, you don't have to be a criminal to get deported, even if you are a legal immigrant.. a small thing like not reporting a change of address w/in ten days can result in deportation. (They don't tell you this.. you have to go search out the rules.) If you run out to the store w/o your green card and are stopped that in itself is a misdemeanor.. so again. grounds for deportation. People had always been issued permanent cards with no expiration date. Then a year or so ago they changed the rules (again, you'd have to go looking for this..) such that EVERYone had to reapply (cost=$370) for NEW cards with expiration dates even if you'd been issued your non-expiry card just the day before. IF you neglected to constantly monitor the changing laws are blithely going around minding your own business thinking you're all set with your formerly-perfectly-valid non-expiry card.. well now you've automatically broken the law => deportation.

Plus, the whole process just takes too long. 4 years was 10% of DH's life.. then to be eligible to apply for citizenship is an extra 3 to 5 years.. so we're at nine years!! Then who knows how long it takes for the bureaucracy to grind on that..

Here, WAGS.. take a gander at this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/us/24vets.html



Good enough to fight and die for the US, to be given weapons and trusted with the lives of fellow soldiers.. but to be a full-fledged citizen..? ehhh we'll get back to you.


P.S. I'm harping on the green cards just because that's my sphere of limited experience and it just shows how slow and inefficient the gov. is in dealing with LEGAL immigrants (like the poor soldiers above). It's shameful. And the longer and harder and more capricious the road is.. the more incentive there is to take shortcuts. I think I said elsewhere.. it may be illegal to run a red light.. but few among us wouldn't sneak through an intersection if the red light lasted half an hour, much less several years.

P.P.S. to Caroline.. just wanted to say I loved your post that pointed out the absurdities of immigration/citizenship policies worldwide.
http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...3&postcount=20
everyone should read this if they haven't already..

Ladelfina & Caroline great articles.

The NY times article that you posted and the previous NY Times article that I posted should show us all how difficult, time consuming and unfair the system is towards legal immigrants as they attempt to become legal U.S citizens.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/us/24vets.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/12/us...in&oref=slogin#

It's shameful that the U.S government recruits foreign nationals to fight in our wars with promises of citizenship, but when the time comes for OUR government to fullfill their promises to OUR TROOPS and OUR VETERANS all of a sudden they play the NUT ROLL and they forget what the promise was and they make the process so time consuming and difficult. If Mr. Bush was man enough to send these fine young people to be wounded and die for his WAR and OUR NATION then he should be man enough to step up to the plate and do the right thing.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[ladelfina]

all of a sudden they play the NUT ROLL

Wags, what's "the nut roll"?... and do you have a YouTube video of someone playing it!?!

GOD BLESS!

[Wags]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Wags, what's "the nut roll"?... and do you have a YouTube video of someone playing it!?!

GOD BLESS!

No, do not have a youtube of a NUT ROLL. But when I was in the service and an DAC government employee a NUT ROLL (we would not use the word ROLE) was when someone would order you to do something or they would tell you how to do it and then when the manure hit the wall they would deny ever telling you or they would deny having any knowledge of the incident.

In other words they were SPINELESS VARMITS who acted like a NUT and they would ROLL with which ever lie got their mangy butts out of trouble.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Gosh bpp, I usually dont see a lot of outrage about being given the big pp.

Originally Posted by bright eyed

Seriously? wow - what does having an accent and not being raised in the US have to do with citizenship?

That get's the ignorant post of the day award...

Isnt that nice? He's got an accent and smells a little like taco seasoning, so he's an illegal immigrant! You can just tell! Guess what...the same line of thinking went into the "guessing" of how many illegal aliens are in the US, how many are working, what they're paid, how often they have children, and how much social service money they're soaking up.

This is what I was trying to pull the covers off of. A whole lot of this objecting to immigration is simply an Archie Bunker mentality grabbing at random estimated studies and using those to imply that their concerns are legitimate issues and not just a matter of feeling uncomfortable with unfamiliar people and their culture. Its objecting to immigration and people that are not like you...not the illegal portion.

Another whole bunch of it is people who see all these BS headlines and studies and without trying to ascertain their legitimacy, find themselves outraged.

I just cant find a way to enjoy intolerance. Nor am I that thrilled about people who strongly resist being shown that the source of their outrage is illegitimate.

I'm sure that 50-100 years ago each european, asian and native indian/hispanic ethnic groups were all uncomfortable with each other.

As far as being ticked that the illegal workers at the meat plants are sending half their money overseas...well I guess we should be equally pissed at every US company who is outsourcing production and services overseas and sending a few trillion in total out of the country? Hmm, and unless I'm mistaken, the early european and asian migrants also sent a big share of their earnings back to the "old country" to help support their family.

And as far as immigration causing a "downward normalization", thats not what happened in the US in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Granted the culture of the people moving in is drastically different and unfamiliar, but its not necessarily a measurable bad thing for the economy.

While I'm pretty sure there was a lot of grumbling about the dang italians and irish...the melting pot seems to have produced a pretty good soup.

Back to the point of origin, its these sorts of empty outrage posts that create a lot of ill will and do no good whatsoever. Is that Gods work? Can I get some angels over here?

[ladelfina]

]

Can I get some angels over here?

And let's not forget to ask: WWJD?


also from the earlier link
Perfectly Legal Immigrants, Until They Applied for Citizenship - New York Times

In a case that drew Congressional attention this year in Illinois, Marin Turcinovic, an immigrant from Croatia, was twice denied citizenship because he did not show up at the immigration office to be fingerprinted. As his lawyer explained to no avail, Mr. Turcinovic was a quadriplegic, dependent on a ventilator and unable to leave his home.

(He'd been hit by a car in the US.. not admitted as a paraplegic.)

[Wags]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

]

And let's not forget to ask: WWJD?


also from the earlier link
Perfectly Legal Immigrants, Until They Applied for Citizenship - New York Times

(He'd been hit by a car in the US.. not admitted as a paraplegic.)

What has happen to common sense, to treating human beings with dignity, respect and compassion?

From the NY Times - "In a case that drew Congressional attention this year in Illinois, Marin Turcinovic, an immigrant from Croatia, was twice denied citizenship because he did not show up at the immigration office to be fingerprinted. As his lawyer explained to no avail, Mr. Turcinovic was a quadriplegic, dependent on a ventilator and unable to leave his home."

I guess the government expected Mr. Turchinovic to get out of his wheelchair or bed, disconnect himself from the ventilator and drive himself to the immigration office. What a bunch of (Moderator Edit)
GOD BLESS US ALL

[Independent]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

First off - You are assuming processing plant labor is a major factor in the price of meat. It's not.

When I was a teen in the 70's chicken plants (mostly non-unionized) started at around $3 & you could work up to $7 to $8 an hour - a fella could actually support a little family, buy a small house, & have a decent used car. Not a lot - but someone without a HS educ could manage & had fair job security. (Guess what they pay now - start at $6 & work up to $9 or $10)

Before the illegal aliens invaded the beef packing plants in the midwest - they were Unionized & folks made a semi-decent blue collar wage - processing plant labor wages have actually gone down in that industry over the past 30 years.

100% of those US Citizen wages of the past got spent here - over 50% of the illegal alien wages nowadays get sent back home to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, & El Salvador.

I'm not going to disagree with your wage comments. I picked meat packing for my example because it's an area where real wages have gone down a lot, and where there seems to be a relatively high percent of illegal workers. I don't believe that the illegal workers are the only reason that wages have gone down, but I do believe they are part of the picture.

I don't understand your "You are assuming processing plant labor is a major factor in the price of meat. It's not." comment. My example works as long as wages have any connection to prices. I was just trying to explain to CFB that I understand that his standard of living (and mine) would be a little lower if we didn't have all the the illegal workers in the country. But the trade-off for that would be the SOL for certain native born workers would be noticeably higher.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Independent

I was just trying to explain to CFB that I understand that his standard of living (and mine) would be a little lower if we didn't have all the the illegal workers in the country. But the trade-off for that would be the SOL for certain native born workers would be noticeably higher.

And that's exactly it. For folks who aren't in competition with illegals for jobs, the presence of illegals means the prices of some goods and services are lower while their own income remains the same. For folks who are in competition with illegals for jobs, the prices for some goods and services are lower but wages for jobs they qualify for are lower, probably much lower. They become net losers in the game.

For someone like CFB (made millions in his career and now nicely FIRE'd), there is no concern that wages for non-skilled and semi-skilled jobs are plummeting. And the lower prices for certain goods and services are a nice treat. Of course, this isn't just CFB, it's anyone in those circumstances and would include many on this forum.

You can always come up with some anecdotal examples that seem to contradict economic theory, but in the end the principals prevail. The struggle to distribute wealth in a Democracy always has it's winners and losers and the history of labor in the USA interests me greatly.

[Notmuchlonger]

"The struggle to distribute wealth in a Democracy always has it's winners and losers and the history of labor in the USA interests me greatly."

Notice as a society we have gotten away from being a winner or loser? Everyone gets a ribbon just because they showed up. We wouldn't want little Johnny or Susie to feel that they weren't a winner

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Notmuchlonger

"The struggle to distribute wealth in a Democracy always has it's winners and losers and the history of labor in the USA interests me greatly."

Notice as a society we have gotten away from being a winner or loser? Everyone gets a ribbon just because they showed up. We wouldn't want little Johnny or Susie to feel that they weren't a winner

Hmmmmm..... I dunno......

Yes, in our schools there seems to be an effort to have all the kiddies have high self-esteem and that sort of thing. But in the economy, wealth is definitely becoming concentrated with decent paying blue collar jobs, semi-skilled jobs and even many technical jobs with benefits becoming scarce and more and more of the nation's wealth concentrated in the top 1% or 2% of the population.

Don't want to argue that...... The subject has already blazed it's way through several bitter threads. But, there's no doubt there are economic winners and loser today and the difference between the two is widening.

[bpp3]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Gosh bpp, I usually dont see a lot of outrage about being given the big pp.

Hey, what matters is how it is given, right?
YouTube - It Ain't the Meat, It's the Motion

A whole lot of this objecting to immigration is simply an Archie Bunker mentality

Ok, I'm getting all this from a distance and in attenuated form through the filter of the intertubes, so maybe I'm missing a lot of context and subtext, but I don't hear the 70's sitcom stereotypes. I'm sure they are there, but frankly don't find them interesting to engage anyway.

Just taking people at their word that the problem is not immigration, but rather illegal immigration, from my side of the screen it looks like there is indeed a problem. It seems to me the most fair and humane solution is to either let everyone in freely, or find a way to effectively limit the flow. Take your pick. (As for me, NMPMB(*), effectively) But the solution should not include forcing large numbers of people through the desert to live lives without legal rights and responsibilities, creating a permanent marginalized underclass. That will surely bite you in the buttocks some day, if conscience fails to motivate.

If you need the cheap nannies and gardeners (and now I have to ask whether everyone in the US has become another sitcom character in my absence: either Thurston Howell the 3rd or Charles Emerson Winchester, complaining about how hard it is to find help these days. Seriously, who the heck has nannies and gardeners? Is that really a major pillar of the economy now?), then let them in legally. Otherwise, figure out how to keep them out effectively. But don't defend the current situation.

(And I note that you are not defending the current situation, CFB, just questioning the motives of those who think it should be changed.)

(*) Not My Planet, Monkey-Boy.