Patriotism Means Staying in the Market? - My Rant de Jour

[dex]

I think the common flaw in all the scenarios is what is called - Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation):assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot.
A List Of Fallacious Arguments

For example in your scenarios - a few of other reasons might be:
1. Need - living expenses; obligation - pay loans
2. Less taxes forces the government to re-evaluate other spending and reallocate funds to support war costs.
3. The person believes there is better quality with American products

The other aspect to fill in for the reader is to provide the "How" or "Why" of your scenario
For example:
How, is it an act of civic responsibility (or stupidity) to stay on the sidelines and not line up to get your cash out when there is a run on the bank? I think as with the your first post this is an important aspect.

[Ultimate Cheapskate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex I think the common flaw in all the scenarios is what is called - Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation):assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot. A List Of Fallacious Arguments For example in your scenarios - a few of other reasons might be: 1. Need - living expenses; obligation - pay loans 2. Less taxes forces the government to re-evaluate other spending and reallocate funds to support war costs. 3. The person believes there is better quality with American products

Dex - I agree with you about there being multiple and valid motivations, that's clear. For instance, I don't have a strict "buy American" policy in my spending practices, primarily because I think it's only fair to consume products from other countries since they consume so many of ours. That said, I can understand people who say I'm being "unpatriotic," but in my mind the greater issue of global fairness trumps patriotism; in other examples, like taxes, patriotism comes out on top.

But regardless of the multitude of legitimate motivations, my question is is "patriotism" or "civic responsibility" one of those valid motivations in the examples I give, or is that a fallacy, as you argued about staying in the stock market? Do any of the three examples I give involve issues of patriotism, IYO?

[audreyh1]

Dex - where is your avatar from? I've been wondering for months!

Audrey

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 Dex - where is your avatar from? I've been wondering for months! Audrey

I just did a search for free avatar - sorry I can't find the site. I don't look like that - I shave my head.

I read an article that said that people actually are influenced by what avatar a person uses. Also in places like Second Life, people hold the same preduices as they do in real life. Taller or more beautiful avatars age given more attention.

The last one I had was an old guy in a easy chair looking scared.

[audreyh1]

Yeah - the old guy would make me jump too. But this one really makes me jump.

The art style looks like either the cover of some trashy romance novel (except that the guy looks too angry), or some the cover for some violent video game.

Audrey

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate Do any of the three examples I give involve issues of patriotism, IYO?

A person can make an argument that they are patriotic or not depending upon the knowledge base involved. It could also be discussed in the contexts of good or bad economic policy or social policy.

With Only the info provided:
1 Patriotic - Assumes the bank survives to continue operations at a future date.
2 Un patriotic - Assumes the reduction in taxes will reduce defense spending and negatively affect the success chances of the war.
3 Patriotic - Assumes money goes to USA companies and employees

With information provided and additional knowledge
1. Un Patriotic - people keep their money in the bank but the people who need the money don't take it out or take less out - economy comes to a halt
2. Patriotic - Less taxes forces the government to re-evaluate other spending and reallocate funds to support war costs. After the war, taxes can be reduced again. "The government is best which governs least" Thomas Jefferson - less government more freedom
3 Un Patriotic (buying only American) - Assume foreign counties product less expensive, same quality - Buying the American product supports a business that needs to change and adjust to the competition. By buying the foreign product puts the American product mfg.on notice that they need to change and adjust.

[Marquette]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate 1- In the good old days when there was a run on the banks, was it an act of civic responsibility (or stupidity) to stay on the sidelines and not line up to get your cash out? 2- A friend of mine has "Support Our Troops" bumperstickers plastered all over his car, but he's a fanatical supporter of tax cuts. His position on taxes, BTW, isn't grounded in a belief that lower taxes will necessarily grow the economy (thereby resulting a greater tax revenues in total), but simply that government deserves less fuding. Is there any hypocrisy in those positions? 3- People who insist on buying American-made products: Is that a patriotic act?

Quote:

Patriotic: 1 : inspired by patriotism 2 : befitting or characteristic of a patriot Patriotism : love for or devotion to one's country

In light of that, I think all three scenarios can be answered by what one's intent is in their actions.

2 and 3 are probably easier to answer.

On 2, one can support their troops but not the war they're being asked to fight. One can also support their troops but not like how money for everything else is being spent. Or, even more specifically, it's not incongruous to be for maintaining a strong military but being against projects such as the V-22 Osprey that appear to be large money sinks.

On 3, personally I shop quality and value. Cheap doesn't equal value and expensive doesn't equal quality. If an American company is the best supplier, then I will buy from them. But, in this day and age, what does that mean?

I drive an American-built car. It's a Honda Accord, built right here in Ohio. In college, I built a foreign car, a Buick Regal built in Canada. Guess which one has caused more flak at family reunions? Half of my extended family are retired GM workers. They were upset that I was buying a foreign car when they saw the Accord. They didn't think it was very patriotic.

When it comes down to it, while I was supporting blue collar car builders like them by preferring American-built cars, I was funneling profits to a company that wasn't paying for their retirement benefits.

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex I just did a search for free avatar - sorry I can't find the site. I don't look like that - I shave my head. I read an article that said that people actually are influenced by what avatar a person uses. Also in places like Second Life, people hold the same preduices as they do in real life. Taller or more beautiful avatars age given more attention. The last one I had was an old guy in a easy chair looking scared.

I read this as well. Why do you think the whip?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Look at the cute fuzzy bunnnnnyyyy..

[CuppaJoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate .... But here we are at the very moment when hordes of Americans are fleeing the market, making an already bad situation exponentially worse, raising in my mind a question: Am I the only guy out there willing to stay in the market for the common good?..., staying in the market rather than bailing out – isn’t considered an act of patriotism?....

-
I alluded to this in a recent thread writing that I feel that buying now is almost patriotic; I'm not so sure that applies to holding because that depends on the price you paid and your overall situation.

Buy now? What better weapon do we, as individuals, have to fight the fear that has entered the market, to restore confidence? The often miss-used word, patriotic, may not be the best expression for doing that, what would be a better word?

[sfsob]

Ultimate, as a fellow cheap skate I enjoyed reading your well written post and the follow ups. I agree with Ed's response that it is not really an issue of patriotism. That said, I still think you are doing the right thing by staying in the stock market.

A free market is just a place where people freely trade goods and services. Both parties place a value on the this and if agreeable a trade is made. The stock market "works" because an investor exchanges their real savings to a company which uses it as capital to expand their business. In return the investor shares in the company's expected future growth.

But what if we pull out a crystal ball and see that the company's growth will fall from 10% to 5% and it will stay that way forever. In a free market we would predict that the savings we are willing to pay for that future growth would be less. Would it be patriotic to stay the course? Would it be patriotic if we could convince everyone to stay invested in that company? I would argue no because that money should be used to capitalize other more productive assets.

Of course, no one, and I do mean no one has such a crystal ball. In the long run the best we can expect is that the economy will grow and that we as investors will share in that growth (less investment costs and taxes). So, in the abscence of any good crystal all we mere mortals can do is diversify in low cost investments and stay the course.

[audreyh1]

I do think there is some social benefit to not panicking.

Audrey

[Ultimate Cheapskate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 I do think there is some social benefit to not panicking. Audrey

Well, I think we'd all agree that when exiting a burning theater or a sinking ship, there's some common good to be served by not being part of a panic that ultimately harms others. The issue is, does the same ethos apply in the financial examples being discussed? That's my curiousity de jour, but maybe I should just get over it (too many viewings of "It's a Wonderful Life" perhaps).

[sfsob]

Ultimate, what a great movie, one of my favorites. In the case of a run on the bank I agree that it would not be in the public interest for people to pull their money from the banks in panic.

As for a stock market panic I'll have to think about that some more. My initial reaction is that markets work and once this has blown over an equilibrium will be reached based on the fundamentals. I realize that if your investment horizon is less than 10 years this doesn't feel so good right now!

[ERD50]

There is a fundamental difference between a bank run and a stock market sell off.

As others have said (sfsob a few posts up), the price of a stock represents it's value (well, its perceived value, but that's all we have). A market simply cannot work, if people try to 'wish' something to $15, if everyone really thinks it is worth $10. The money really needs to flow towards things that are perceived to be worth the $15.

Now, a bank run - that seems to fall into the "tragedy of the commons" area. Just like the movie, everyone wants out because they are afraid the other guy is going to get out and leave them high and dry. But it is in everyone's best interests to only take as much as they need, so that the bank can continue to function for everyone. But that cannot happen w/o some controls in place, to make sure that everyone takes only what they need.

Jimmy Stewart for President!

_It's a Wonderful Life_ in 30 seconds with bunnies.



-ERD50

[Dog]

Is paying taxes patriotic I wonder how many people take advantage of sending in additional $ when filing their tax returns?

[Ultimate Cheapskate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dog Is paying taxes patriotic I wonder how many people take advantage of sending in additional $ when filing their tax returns?

Dog - Well, what's your answer?

I'd say that paying your fair share of taxes is defintiely a patriotic duty, albeit one that's enforced by law. Although that's not unusual either (e.g. serving in the military when there's a draft is also enforced by law). If paying taxes isn't a patriotic act, then what is?

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate Dog - Well, what's your answer? I'd say that paying your fair share of taxes is defintiely a patriotic duty, albeit one that's enforced by law. Although that's not unusual either (e.g. serving in the military when there's a draft is also enforced by law). If paying taxes isn't a patriotic act, then what is?

I think you answer your own question here; it is not patriotic - patriotism is not something that can be enforced by law*. (Patriotism is commonly defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country.)

* I worked in two non USA countries and I had to pay taxes to them. That does not mean it was a patriotic act to those countries.

[Ultimate Cheapskate]

Dex - I'm really not trying to be clever or stubborn here, and I understand and accept the definition of patriotism you give. But is it just a mental thing, a belief that "I love my country" or are there any outward acts or behavior that's patriotic? Am I a patriot if I simply know that I love my country without doing or saying anything else?

[dex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate Dex - I'm really not trying to be clever or stubborn here, and I understand and accept the definition of patriotism you give.

OK,
Let's start with definitions -
Citizenship is the political rights of an individual within a society.
CIVIC DUTY is the responsibilities of a citizen.
Patriotism is the love of and/or devotion to one's country.
+++
IF, a citizen that fulfills all the responsibilities (civic duty) of a citizen it does not mean it is a patriotic act.

Patriotism is an emotion. It can be expressed the willingness to sacrifice for the country.

====
I don't like analogies because people think that if they can find an irrelevant aspect wrong then the apology is wrong. It is the intent of the analogy is important.
Patriotism is like the love of one person for another.
1. It is expressed by the un-required actions of one for another.
2. As in love, the intent does matter. Are you doing this sacrifice because you want to or you have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate are there any outward acts or behavior that's patriotic?

This is answered with knowing the intent. Two people can enter the army - one for the education benefits; the second to protect his country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Cheapskate Am I a patriot if I simply know that I love my country without doing or saying anything else?

No. We are not often asked to express out patriotism (I don't mean saying you are patriotic when asked - I mean sacrifice). But when asked (not required) there is a positive response done with willingness engagement (passion?).