Will the real Obama please stand up

[ChrisC]

I found an interesting piece in today's OPWashington Post about race by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. (I tried posting the link but couldn't.) It always strikes me as a bit odd how people can think that "race," given our sad history and the psychological impact it has had on all of us -- even including new immigrants like the author here in this piece -- can be wiped out from being a "factor." Yes, a whole lot of black people think OJ is innocent and that Clarence Thomas could not have done those horrible things to Anita Hill -- and it's difficult to discern whether these folks are just "sticking it to the man" or just ignint or really believe those views. And yes, some have one-track minds, like others, but I think that to say that 95 percent of blacks who might cast their votes for Obama solely because he is black does not square with my sense of things.

First of all, there are, unfortunately, many blacks who believe that Obama is not "black" enough! Douglas Wilder, when he ran for Governor of Virginia, was often decried as not being an "authentic black" candidate, whatever that meant. Tiger Woods is also viewed the same way by many blacks -- not black enuff!

Secondly, if you put Mickey Mouse against the Republican Candidate, 90 percent of black electorate would vote for the Mouse. And when Ed Brooke was the Republican Senator from MA I'm not sure he got the majority of the black vote there. Blacks have historically voted big time for the Dems in presidential elections since LBJ. (People forget that Nixon got 30 percent of the black vote against Kennedy in the 1960 election because many prominent blacks like Jackie Robinson endorsed Nixon and MLK straddled the fence for a long time on his endorsement of Kennedy and he was even leaning towards endorsing Nixon at one time.)

Thirdly, why do people have angst over this issue? Big deal, a small percentage, in my view, both white and black, are so narrow-minded that they will vote solely because of the race, gender, religion or ethnicity of a candidate. We ought to count our blessings that in this stage of our development as a people that it's only a small percentage, I hope.

[Letj]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

I think some white voters (self included) are turned off to Obama not because of his race, but rather because of the racially divisive agenda of the "afro-centric" church he belongs to and supported for 20 years.

They wonder will we have an "afrocentric" administration with Obama? I think it's the ultimate in hypocrisy that one of his major themes is that he will be a "uniter". I wonder what that really means to him.

Despite the dismissal of it by die-hard Obama supporters, the whole Rev. Wright/church thing continues to be an issue with me & I suspect other white voters as well.

When a prominent local/state political figure (& later United States Senator) attends & supports for 20 years a church with a non-mainstream socio-politically charged racially divisive agenda - that says something to people in the community about that church - the Senator's mere presence is lending major credibility to the ideas put forth by that church.

Personally, I was listening to & researching Obama, but when I found out about this church & the level of his past involvement in it, and perused their web site - & then read some excerpts from his book - I became completely deaf to pretty much anything else he had to say

However, white persons are apparently not allowed to voice such opinions without being "racist".

I take exception with you defining "afro centric" as racially divisive. Most if not all African American churches in the US are afro centric. Obama's church is as typical as they get. If he had left his church of 20 years, then all black folks should then leave their church. The church ironically often represents racial healing. There's a big difference between racial pride and racial prejudice. This is quite difficult I realize for some whites to grasp. Racial pride and afro centrism were necessary to enable blacks in America to deal with the legacy of discrimination and slavery. Telling yourself there's nothing wrong with being black or saying "I am unapologetically black" is a way to heal the psyche and to instill a healthy self-esteem in the black child. In other countries such as Brazil, Columbia and many Hispanic countries where racial pride never came, virtually all blacks are stuck at the bottom. In Hispanic countries, blacks attempt to remove the blackness from the family line by marrying lighter skin people. I have traveled the world and I know the effects white domination have on the psyche of blacks. I think American blacks are very lucky that the "black is beautiful" movement came to America.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by Letj

I take exception with you defining "afro centric" as racially divisive.

And I take exception to afrocentrism in general & Trinity UMC in particular - for a lot of different reasons.

I'd argue a lot of the other points you make in your post, but I suspect it'd be a waste of my time.

[Letj]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

I'd argue a lot of the other points you make in your post, but I suspect it'd be a waste of my time.

Yes it certainly will be; I expect more fear mongering and less objectivity.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by Letj

There's a big difference between racial pride and racial prejudice.

I know I'm in the minority, but, for the record, i see absolutely no difference at all between racial pride and racial prejudice. You probably react viscerally to the term "white pride" and this is appropriate, so just be fair about it. White Pride = Black Pride = I'm better than others due to the color of my skin.

Why on earth would anybody be "proud" of their race, anyway? I can understand being proud of one's own accomplishments: If you've left the world a better place, etc, then that is something to take pride in. On a more tenuous note, it probably makes sense to be proud when your kids do something that makes the world better, since you had a hand in instilling values in them. But how can one possibly be "proud" of what his ancestors did? The individual had no hand in it.

The more we focus on an individual's "race" (whether to build him up or tear him down) the more we miss the point.

"Not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." That's what we need to be concentrating on.

[Texarkandy]

It seems Obama's candidacy has become quite a bit about race now doesn't it - & in my view most of it is his own fault due to his choice to have a long & close association with the controversial socio-religious-political agenda of Trinity UMC.

[DallasGuy]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

It seems Obama's candidacy has become quite a bit about race now doesn't it - & in my view most of it is his own fault due to his choice to have a long & close association with the controversial socio-religious-political agenda of Trinity UMC.

Kind of sad that there are people that make this the main issue when determining whether to vote for Obama or not. What are they afraid of...that Obama will start discriminating against whites if he becomes president? I doubt that would or could even happen. And by the way, his mother is white. Aren't there more important issues to consider...like the economy, the Iraq war, health care, etc.?

[Letj]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

It seems Obama's candidacy has become quite a bit about race now doesn't it - & in my view most of it is his own fault due to his choice to have a long & close association with the controversial socio-religious-political agenda of Trinity UMC.

Since some people insist on making his candidacy about race to promote your own agenda, then I guess it will be about race to a certain extent. The candidate himself never makes his race an issue.

I suspect that those who will not vote for Obama because of Rev Wright probably would not have voted for him anyway. I doubt very much whether people leave their church because they don't agree with the minister. Church is much more than the minister; it's a community that binds people together. With that said, it would not surprise me that Obama remained at this church for political reasons which in my view is perfectly reasonable.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by DallasGuy

Aren't there more important issues to consider...like the economy, the Iraq war, health care, etc.?

Yes there certainly are - I 100% agree with that.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by Letj

Since some people insist on making his candidacy about race to promote your own agenda, then I guess it will be about race to a certain extent. The candidate himself never makes his race an issue.

My "own agenda"? What are you trying to insinuate by that? Throw down the race card all you want - I have no "agenda" re: race - Rev Wright & Trinity UMC very pointedly does. Do you?

Obama has made race an issue in this campaign through his choice to make himself (a prominent person in the community) a suporter of a man like "Rev" Wright for over 20 years - and not just as a benign bystander in the congregation. He knows Wright personally & very well. He has discussed the issues with Wright & received counsel from him.

Were Obama a member of a congregation with a less controversial sociopolitical and racial agenda I don't think race would be an issue at all in this campaign with 98% of Americans - and I think that says something good about America. I'd just love if it wasn't an issue - but unfortunately it is one and that is Sen Obama's own fault.

Were a KKK member running for president, would you be saying race is not an issue? Even if he/she denounced the more odious aspects of the KKK when it became politically expedient to do so? Would you give him/her a pass, and then say it shouldn't be an issue? How about David Duke?

Originally Posted by Letj

I suspect that those who will not vote for Obama because of Rev Wright probably would not have voted for him anyway.

True - after I learned more about him on policy and his lack of experience I soon lost interest. (though he was touted early on as a candidate Republican leaning independents like me and even some Republicans could vote for) All I found was a lot of pretty words and a standard Kennedy-esque big govt left wing liberal. Yawn.

The Rev Wright/Trinity UMC thing was just the icing on the cake for me.

Originally Posted by Letj

I doubt very much whether people leave their church because they don't agree with the minister. Church is much more than the minister; it's a community that binds people together.

I disagree - although not religious myself, I personally have known several quite devout people who have left their churches due to disagreement with the religious message or the socio-political leanings of the church - some after a couple years of trying to effect a change in what they disagreed with in the church.

So why did Oprah leave?

Originally Posted by Letj

With that said, it would not surprise me that Obama remained at this church for political reasons which in my view is perfectly reasonable.

I tend to think you may be correct on your last point there and also think Obama's association with the church is likely mostly political and related to Chicago/Illinois politics

(It used to be a KKK association would help you get elected in Mississippi to -a perfectly reasonable choice also?)

I rather suspect Obama's really agnostic or atheist anyway - (not that there's anything wrong with that )

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by DallasGuy

Kind of sad that there are people that make this the main issue when determining whether to vote for Obama or not. What are they afraid of...that Obama will start discriminating against whites if he becomes president? I doubt that would or could even happen. And by the way, his mother is white. Aren't there more important issues to consider...like the economy, the Iraq war, health care, etc.?

I presume you are talking about me since you quoted me - note I am not the OP, this thread has been all about the race issue from the beginning, & I just jumped in a little later.

Doesn't mean it's the "main issue" to me. Just happened to be the topic when I dropped in on this thread.

And by the by - the race issue is not about Obama being black, multiracial or whatever (though I realize Obama supporters like to make that charge) - it's about his long and close association with a racially divisive religious leader and organization.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by samclem

I know I'm in the minority, but, for the record, i see absolutely no difference at all between racial pride and racial prejudice. You probably react viscerally to the term "white pride" and this is appropriate, so just be fair about it. White Pride = Black Pride = I'm better than others due to the color of my skin.

Why on earth would anybody be "proud" of their race, anyway? I can understand being proud of one's own accomplishments: If you've left the world a better place, etc, then that is something to take pride in. On a more tenuous note, it probably makes sense to be proud when your kids do something that makes the world better, since you had a hand in instilling values in them. But how can one possibly be "proud" of what his ancestors did? The individual had no hand in it.

The more we focus on an individual's "race" (whether to build him up or tear him down) the more we miss the point.

"Not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." That's what we need to be concentrating on.

Agreed

[Letj]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

My "own agenda"? What are you trying to insinuate by that? Throw down the race card all you want - I have no "agenda" re: race - Rev Wright & Trinity UMC very pointedly does. Do you?

"Your agenda" was a typo. I did not mean to insinuate that you had an agenda only that some people who oppose his association with the church may have an agenda whether it's a political one or otherwise. I understand your point of view but where I vigorously disagree with you is your assertion that this is a hateful white bashing church. With all due respect, I believe you've bought into the media hype. While the pastor has said controversial things, it's not like this was the center piece of the church. The church is very prominent in Chicago and is a force for good in the community and is heavily involved in social work. One of it's main mission is working with the disaffected inner city folks and is quite respected by local politicians.

Have you taken the time to watch the entire sermons of the snippets you saw on television. I have done so and taken within context, they're really not so bad. Take a look at the entire version on youtube.


I agree with you, I think he may be agnostic. I also think that TUC was pivotal in his political career.

[Letj]

Racial pride may not be as important for whites as it is for blacks. In the black community, it's the key to healing psychological wounds. Think of it as repeating to yourself "I am good enough". It's important to understand that psychological scars remain for people who have faced discrimination. Earlier in the thread I stated the preference for lighter skin offspring in Hispanics countries. It's a direct result of colonialism and the efforts to separate people of color into preferable and less preferable categories. It's really hard to relate to this sort of thing unless you've lived it. As I stated, I traveled widely and lived outside the US so I can vouch for this stuff. This phenomenon is described by many Hispanic, Brazilian and Caribbean authors.

[Texarkandy]

For the record: (copied from another site) - you can argue there might be a little truth here & there in some of it - but can you say many of these are not racially divisive - how is this kind of thing & afrocentrism supposed to bring us closer together as Americans? (Ironically a major them of Sen. Obama)

I might suggest the "black community" find a healthier way to deal with some of their issues - but I suppose some say that as a white person it's not my place to suggest anything to the black community.


All Quotes Attributed to Pastor Jeremiah Wright

“We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye.”

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America’s chickens are coming home to roost.” (Sep 2001)

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring black concerns.” (magazine article)

“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)

“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary would never know that. Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.” (sermon)

“The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for over 40 years now. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community and wake up Americans concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism.”

[samclem]

Letj, I'm afraid we'll just disagree on this. "Racial pride" keeps the focus in precisely the wrong place.
-- It harms the individual. "My identity is as a black person, and that's a good thing. My self worth is bolstered by the fact I'm black." Does this seem like a formula for honestly enhancing a person's sense of self-worth, by making them feel more important over an entirely insignificant detail, rather than something they have control over?
-- It harms society. Look no farther than the case of Obama. We should be talking about his policies and his character. The main thing i know about his character is that he put up with this "blacks are continually victimized by the hateful whites" BS and subjected his family to it for 20 years. This has, rightfully, put a big ding in his candidacy. Those (white and black) who are truly ready to leave race behind as a factor in our decisions on individuals are uncomfortable voting for someone whose "spiritual milieu" was centered on race.

"This sad little lizard told me that he was a brontosaurus on his mother's side. I did not laugh; people who boast of ancestry often have little else to sustain them. Humoring them costs nothing and adds to happiness in a world in which happiness is always in short supply." ROBERT A. HEINLEIN

But, humoring them does cost something. It allows the racists and the race warlords and the bigots to have an issue that they should be denied.

[USK Coastie]

I won't be voting for Obama or McCain this year. Both support higher taxes, increased government regulation , and increased litigation. That's not my America. We need less of all three not more. People are responsible for their own choices and actions I.E. mortgage mess, hot coffee in your lap, and not having medical ins and expecting "someone" else to pay.

Special interests and the desire to remain in power "in DC" for the perks is one of the problems. Perhaps one of the two clowns could push through a term limits bill to get rid of the clowns in DC. Probably after pigs fly

Still wouldn't vote for either one though

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by samclem

Letj, I'm afraid we'll just disagree on this. "Racial pride" keeps the focus in precisely the wrong place.
-- It harms the individual. "My identity is as a black person, and that's a good thing. My self worth is bolstered by the fact I'm black." Does this seem like a formula for honestly enhancing a person's sense of self-worth, by making them feel more important over an entirely insignificant detail, rather than something they have control over?
-- It harms society. Look no farther than the case of Obama. We should be talking about his policies and his character. The main thing i know about his character is that he put up with this "blacks are continually victimized by the hateful whites" BS and subjected his family to it for 20 years. This has, rightfully, put a big ding in his candidacy. Those (white and black) who are truly ready to leave race behind as a factor in our decisions on individuals are uncomfortable voting for someone whose "spiritual milieu" was centered on race.

I'll disagree with you on this one, too. I'm just kinda puzzled at how one can find harm in one of the most basic attributes that we have humans cling -- identification with a group or even more basic, identification with people in common with us like family, school, city, state, nation, religion, culture or, god forbid, race. (I don't have any major issues when people say that are proud of their white race, though I think it's kinda funny in this nation. And there's a big differenc