Will the real Obama please stand up

[BoutDone]

Are there any others, besides me, wondering exactly where Obama stands on issues? Not just for a speech but from his heart.


"In his speech Wednesday before the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, Obama sounded a bit like the more hawkish officials in the Bush administration.


He said the military option is "on the table" for dealing with Iran's nuclear program, and in stark contrast to earlier statements, he said he would meet with Iranian leaders "if and only if it can advance the interest of the United States."

Obama's tone was strikingly different from it has been in the past.
During a debate last summer, he said he would be willing to meet with Iranian leaders and other American adversaries "without preconditions" during the first year of his presidency. Today, he made it clear that we should not expect a President Obama to be sitting down with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad any time soon."


And regarding Rev Wright.


"As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother

These people are a part of me."

Well, they were. That is until they started to hurt his campaign.

Is the kind of "change" Obama has been speaking of? Is he simply going to "change" what he says he believes in for political expediency?

[chinaco]

I am not sure...

But I suppose the real Obama will stand up and be president.

[Wags]

I beleive Mr. Obama stood up in October 2002 but for whatever reason the country was not listening.

Barack Obama's Iraq Speech - Wikisource

Instead the nation chose to follow Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney into a war with Iraq in which there is no end in sight.

God Bless Us All

[FreeBird]

I appreciate your looking at the "facts" but unfortunately we live in the age and culture of American Idol where most of us base our opinions and votes upon something a lot less than policies, details of "change", and where a candidate stands on the issues.

Huge numbes of blacks will be voting for Obama solely because he's black. Does that make them racists'? Probably not but there's definitely a racial factor involved based on a shallow view of the overall picture of the man.

Huge numbes of whites will be voting for Obama solely because they have strong feelings as "white apologists' ". Does that make them racists'? Probably not but there's definitely a racial factor involved based on a shallow view of the overall picture of the man.

The same assumptions could also be easily put forth on McCain but the point is that it seems to me that more folks in my living history just aren't interested in the complete and honest story of a candidate, but instead cast their votes on single issues or as mentioned above on something that has absolutely nothing to do with any of the issues.

But this is America and everyone can vote. Problem is, we've become a very dumbed-down culture and that is sad, but it does guarantee one thing: We'll get exactly what we deserve on election day.

[Gumby]

boutdone: Don't you have anything better to do with your time than make trollish posts here? So far, your 94 posts have been almost exclusively devoted to bashing Obama, and you have contributed pretty much nothing else to the board. There are other websites where you and your like-minded buddies can post on this topic to your hearts' content. I would recommend that you go there. You're simply wasting bandwidth here.

P.S. -- if you are going to cut and paste the words of others, you should credit the source.

P.P.S. -- your commentary adds nothing

[brewer12345]

Originally Posted by Gumby

boutdone: Don't you have anything better to do with your time than make trollish posts here? So far, your 94 posts have been almost exclusively devoted to bashing Obama, and you have contributed pretty much nothing else to the board. There are other websites where you and your like-minded buddies can post on this topic to your hearts' content. I would recommend that you go there. You're simply wasting bandwidth here.

What he said.

[BoutDone]

Originally Posted by Gumby

boutdone: Don't you have anything better to do with your time than make trollish posts here? So far, your 94 posts have been almost exclusively devoted to bashing Obama, and you have contributed pretty much nothing else to the board. There are other websites where you and your like-minded buddies can post on this topic to your hearts' content. I would recommend that you go there. You're simply wasting bandwidth here.

P.S. -- if you are going to cut and paste the words of others, you should credit the source.

P.P.S. -- your commentary adds nothing

The Soap Box
For issues concerning public policy, prominent political figures, and topics about governmental conduct. Inotherwords, politics.
Source: Early Retirement Forums

Seems to me that, by definition, this is a perfect place to discuss politics. Besides, I find it much more interesting than "My RV trip to the Smokies" or "Why is there lint in my navel?"

What I have cut and pasted are the exact words of the candidate. Kind of hard to spin that. When you actually listen and objectively weigh what is being said there are real questions about who Obama really is and what he really stands for.

People who bash Bush have said "he lied", "ran as a uniter but ended up a divider". I, for one, do not want to see that happen again. So, I try to point out some of the few facts that we do know about Obama. Candidates can say anything. It is what they do that matters.

[BoutDone]

Originally Posted by FreeBird

Huge numbes of blacks will be voting for Obama solely because he's black. Does that make them racists'? Probably not but there's definitely a racial factor involved based on a shallow view of the overall picture of the man.

Huge numbes of whites will be voting for Obama solely because they have strong feelings as "white apologists' ". Does that make them racists'? Probably not but there's definitely a racial factor involved based on a shallow view of the overall picture of the man.

Your comments are exactly correct, though risky in this age of political correctness.

Blacks want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of oppressive racism lifted. Whites want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of guilt from racism lifted. Both project their desires onto the blank screen of Obama. He in turn, plays back our sympathies in a way that makes us feel better.

Do we feel better because of his great leadership? Because he has accomplished so many great things? Because he stands for such great principles? Because he has such great plans for the future? No. We feel better because he is someone who we think will allow us to overcome in ourselves the burdens of what we think we do not like in ourselves.

This has given Obama a messiah-like persona that has put our objectivity on the far back burner. But who is the man really? Before we place the future of our great country in Obamas' hands we deserve to know more about who he is and what he stands for.

[ERD50]

BoutDone, I think the issue that Gumby has is that your approach is kind just of a re-hashing of headlines and things that have been discussed to death before ( Wright). It comes across more as bashing than really wanting open discussion. There's obviously some subjectivity there, but I tend to agree with Gumby on this one.

Maybe something more useful, like compare an issue of importance between McCain and Obama - where do they each stand? Maybe that would be something we could learn from.

Just a suggestion.

-ERD50

[DallasGuy]

Originally Posted by BoutDone

Blacks want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of oppressive racism lifted. Whites want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of guilt from racism lifted. Both project their desires onto the blank screen of Obama. He in turn, plays back our sympathies in a way that makes us feel better.

I don't think whites have voted for Obama (and will vote for him in the future) because they feel they are getting a "chance to finally get their burden of guild from racism lifted". If that were the case, we would have had a black presidential candidate long ago. No, white people are voting for Obama because he represents a change from the last 8 years. You make it sound as though anyone voting for Obama is blindly following him. I (a white man) am not blindly following him....I am voting for change from the last 8 years. And hard as the right tries to tie Obama to the rants of some pastors in his church, the more comical it becomes. They sound like a broken record and it gets tiring hearing the same crap day after day after day....because they don't have much else to go on.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by BoutDone

Blacks want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of oppressive racism lifted. Whites want to see in Obama a chance to finally get their burden of guilt from racism lifted. Both project their desires onto the blank screen of Obama. He in turn, plays back our sympathies in a way that makes us feel better.

Do we feel better because of his great leadership? Because he has accomplished so many great things? Because he stands for such great principles? Because he has such great plans for the future? No. We feel better because he is someone who we think will allow us to overcome in ourselves the burdens of what we think we do not like in ourselves.

I'm no fan of over-political-correctness, but I do object to your all-inclusive 'we' in those statements. Speak for yourself. If you are speaking about others, don't use absolutes - not everybody is the same.

It was pointed out in another thread, that not many blacks voted for Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson when they ran. They apparently did not appeal to a large segment of the black population, even though they fill your criteria of being black. So it is not all about race for all people.

I forget what % of the US is black, but it isn't unreasonable that some of them might have a desire to be represented by someone they feel a connection with. Why do you think politicians dress up in hunting clothes when they go to rural areas, or dump the suit when talking with blue-collar workers, why was Hillary doing shots in the bar,etc, etc,etc.

And I don't have any desire to see Obama as president to appease any guilt I may have. I don't even get that.

Despite the fact that there are racial undertones in this campaign. Race is not a factor in MY vote. I will be comparing Obama/McCain ON THE ISSUES over the coming months.

I already know I disagree with both of them on some key issues. This is not going to be easy for me. I also need to see if the libertarian candidate is worthy of consideration, in case neither of the main candidates ends up hitting enough positive marks with me. We will see. It is early in the McCain/Obama front. I'm sure both have been playing it somewhat close to the vest until each knew who they were going against.

-ERD50

[Letj]

Originally Posted by ERD50

I'm no fan of over-political-correctness, but I do object to your all-inclusive 'we' in those statements. Speak for yourself. If you are speaking about others, don't use absolutes - not everybody is the same.

It was pointed out in another thread, that not many blacks voted for Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson when they ran. They apparently did not appeal to a large segment of the black population, even though they fill your criteria of being black. So it is not all about race for all people.

I forget what % of the US is black, but it isn't unreasonable that some of them might have a desire to be represented by someone they feel a connection with. Why do you think politicians dress up in hunting clothes when they go to rural areas, or dump the suit when talking with blue-collar workers, why was Hillary doing shots in the bar,etc, etc,etc.

And I don't have any desire to see Obama as president to appease any guilt I may have. I don't even get that.

Despite the fact that there are racial undertones in this campaign. Race is not a factor in MY vote. I will be comparing Obama/McCain ON THE ISSUES over the coming months.

I already know I disagree with both of them on some key issues. This is not going to be easy for me. I also need to see if the libertarian candidate is worthy of consideration, in case neither of the main candidates ends up hitting enough positive marks with me. We will see. It is early in the McCain/Obama front. I'm sure both have been playing it somewhat close to the vest until each knew who they were going against.

-ERD50

Brilliant post!!! It's quite true that most blacks have not supported the black candidates who ran for president in the past. This time is different because blacks do see someone who can actually win and they are proud and why not? They've voted from the time they got the right to vote in the range of 90% for white candidates. Unlike many white folks that will not vote for Obama because he is blacks, black folks never said they will not vote for a white candidate because he is white. It's only logical that they will support a viable Democratic candidate that happens to be black. The idea that blacks are voting for Obama solely because he is black is quite laughable because they will never vote for an Alan Keyes who is also black nor will they vote in large numbers for Al Sharpton. I don't mean to be condescending but I am often amazed how some people can't see this simple fact.

[shiny]

Originally Posted by BoutDone

This has given Obama a messiah-like persona that has put our objectivity on the far back burner. But who is the man really? Before we place the future of our great country in Obamas' hands we deserve to know more about who he is and what he stands for.

I guess in a way you are right, I sure wish people had known more about George W. Bush before they elected him!

But, I get so tired of the (Fox news like) labels. So, people who like Obama are enthusiastic - that in turn gets him labeled messiah-like, as if those who support him are just swept away in a frenzy and don't care about his ideas.

Haven't you ever been inspired by a person or idea? It is exciting and that is reflected in the feverish support of Obama, sure.

Living overseas we get to see first hand how people are affected by the "idea of America" and I really think that is what is reflected in Obama's candidacy - the optimism and hope that America represents.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by Letj

It's only logical that they will support a viable Democratic candidate that happens to be black.

That's the part I agree with, but wish it were not so. Why should Obama's race encourage blacks to vote for him, Or whites not to vote for him? Obama and Clinton were nearly identical on the issues, though they certainly differed in rhetorical style and experience. Obama frequently won 90+% of the black Democratic vote, but often less than 30% of the white Democratic vote.

I just find it discouraging that at this point in our history so many people (white and black) apparently think a candidate's race is germane to their ability to handle the most important job in the world.

If we call a white person who chooses a white candidate due to his race a "bigot", then a black person who chooses a black candidate because of his race is also a bigot. Or anyone who chooses any candidate due to the person's race (out of a feeling of guilt, compassion, hate, etc, it doesn't matter why). Don't try to dress it up as "racial pride" or some other BS, because those were the same arguments heard in 1930's white America. Nope--"bigot" is the word for these people.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by samclem

Or anyone who chooses any candidate due to the person's race ....

samclem, I will agree with you if the person places their vote mainly on race.

But, I don't think it is that tough to understand that if you are part of a minority that has been tread upon, that you might be inclined to vote for someone who has some good qualifications (admittedly subjective) and is the same race. You might feel there is a chance they will represent you better.

In a perfect world, none of this would matter. But in a perfect world, we never would have had slavery in this nation, or stole from the Native Americans.

-ERD50

[samclem]

Originally Posted by ERD50

But, I don't think it is that tough to understand that if you are part of a minority that has been tread upon, that you might be inclined to vote for someone who has some good qualifications (admittedly subjective) and is the same race.

I understand that it happens. I also understand that white people didn't want black people sitting at the front of the bus. I don't think either is right. The longer we say it is okay to vote against or for a candidate even in part due to race, the longer it will be before society as a whole rejects this thinking.

MLK called for it. Now let us get there and stop making excuses for those who hold us back.

[chinaco]

Originally Posted by Letj

Brilliant post!!! ....Unlike many white folks that will not vote for Obama because he is blacks, black folks never said they will not vote for a white candidate because he is white. ...

You are generalizing... You assume that many white voters will not vote for Obama because of his race. It would appear that you are implying that many white people are racist. Or make political decisions based on the race of a candidate. How do you know what motivates white voters?

Or am I misunderstanding your comment?

What is likely to happen is that Hillary supporters (black and white) will turn to Obama since their candidate did not get the nomination. Why? Because Obama is a closer match to their politics than the alternative.

[Letj]

Originally Posted by chinaco

You are generalizing... You assume that many white voters will not vote for Obama because of his race. It would appear that you are implying that many white people are racist. Or make political decisions based on the race of a candidate. How do you know what motivates white voters?

Or am I misunderstanding your comment?

What is likely to happen is that Hillary supporters (black and white) will turn to Obama since their candidate did not get the nomination. Why? Because Obama is a closer match to their politics than the alternative.

What I am saying is that there are some people that would not vote for Obama simply because he is black. That has been quite evident in many exit polls where voters actually admitted that race was a factor in their vote for Hillary. I read a study recently (although I cannot cite it right now) that an estimated 35% of white Americans said they are unlikely to vote for Obama because of his race. I doubt very much that black people will say they will not vote for someone because he is white. Did you see the Rasmussen survey where 78% of white Americans said they could vote for a black person but 61% said they didn't believe their friends or family could. They numbers speak for themselves. Racism is real in this country and it sometimes cuts both ways.