Yeah, I'm tetchy today; random Italian visitor detained 10 days

[ladelfina]

been a bit edgy today..

Italian’s Detention Illustrates Dangers Foreign Visitors Face
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14visa.html

I have just about had it with the US. I no longer care who says I'm nuts.

Ask ANYONE whether they really thought a few years back that things like this could happen in the USA, and they would have said you were crazy.

[Wags]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

been a bit edgy today..

Italian’s Detention Illustrates Dangers Foreign Visitors Face
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/us/14visa.html

I have just about had it with the US. I no longer care who says I'm nuts.

Ask ANYONE whether they really thought a few years back that things like this could happen in the USA, and they would have said you were crazy.

It happened before 9/11 but just not to the mag·ni·tude that it is happening now.

Since 9/11 the U.S thanks to this adminstration has been swept up to a fever pitch of par·a·noi·a in which if a person does not look American then that person is subject to this type of treatment in which he or she has no rights.

Look at the cases in which Muslims and persons who appear to be Arab or Middle Eastern are stereotyped. Just look at the case of Mr. Obama in how his an·ces·try and name have lead some to assume that he is a Muslim.

God Bless Us All

[HFWR]

What does an American look like?

[Notmuchlonger]

Wonder if this will deter immigration... Or I wonder if people will be beating a path to leave this country...

[Leonidas]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

I have just about had it with the US. I no longer care who says I'm nuts.

Ask ANYONE whether they really thought a few years back that things like this could happen in the USA, and they would have said you were crazy.

I'm not going to say you're nuts, but you do seem to be fixating on negative stories that you believe without necessarily doing some critical thinking. In this instance you take an unproven allegation and turn it into, "I have just about had it with the US". From accusation to condemnation of a country seems a big jump based on an allegation from someone whose veracity is unknown.

And of course it's all based solely on unproven allegations of Ms. Cooper, Mr. Salerno, and his attorney. I don't see where in the story that the Times bothered to ring up anybody at any government agency to ask if they had a statement concerning the allegations.

• But let's say it is basically a true story. Is it unique to Italians visiting the US?

Rai.tv - Mi manda Raitre - Incubo all’aeroporto

Italian Physicist Fabio Biancalana claims he was arrested by French Police at Charles De Gaule Airport because they suspected he was actually an Albanian with forged Italian passport. He said he was held for incommunicado for 16 hours in a cell before being "thrown out of the police area" without an apology.

• Have the Italian authorities ever been accused of anything similar?

Italy has a racist culture, says French editor | World news | The Observer

The editor-in-chief of the French newspaper Le Monde, Jean-Marie Colombani, accused Italian border police at Venice's Marco Polo airport of 'harassing' his 20-year-old adopted son, a French citizen of Indian origin.

His son's luggage was always searched and he was asked questions about his private life and challenged about his nationality. 'It is almost as if Italy is also falling into a populist atmosphere that is in fashion, with the same old temptation towards xenophobia,' Colombani wrote.

He acknowledged that border police at airports across Europe have intensified security checks since the 11 September attacks in 2001, but, he said: 'German or English police, when they do spot checks, do not display this systematic interest in coloured people.'

The open letter offended Italian leaders and members of the public but many non-white Italians and immigrants responded with claims that they are systematically treated as lesser beings.

All across Europe people are being held for days without any apparent rights while authorities make decisions to allow them to enter the country or eject them. (Source:Detention of Asylum Seekers in Europe: Analysis and Perspectives By Jane Hughes and Fabrice Liebaut)

In 2005 Amnesty International wrote a report on the treatment of people detained by the Italian government for suspicion of illegal entry, attempted illegal entry and illegal residency in Italy. They are held in something called ‘temporary stay and assistance centers’ (Centri di Permanenza Temporanea e Assistenza, or CPTA), where they may be held for up to a maximum of 60 days. AI makes them sound pretty bad:

The organization has been concerned by allegations that people held in some CPTAs have been subjected, among other things to: physical assault by law enforcement officers providing security services for the centres and by supervisory staff employed by the various bodies managing the centres on behalf of the Italian authorities; excessive and abusive administration of sedative and tranquillizing drugs; unhygienic living conditions; unsatisfactory medical care; lack of communication with the outside world; difficulties in gaining access to the legal advice necessary to challenge the legality of their detention and expulsion orders and, for those wishing to apply for asylum, difficulties in gaining access to the asylum determination process, resulting in the return of people to countries where they risk serious human rights violations.

The International Herald Tribune did a story this past December about detention camps for foreigners that hold as many 30,000 foreigners across the European Union who are

...asylum-seekers and illegal immigrants awaiting deportation - who are often held in administrative detention for as long as 18 months. In a number of EU countries, there is no upper limit on detention length.

...And they have spread outside of Europe to places like Libya, where Italy builds and pays for detention centers to house migrants it deports.

...Governments are reluctant to admit to their existence, let alone permit entry to the camps; a reporter was denied access to centers in Greece and the Canary Islands of Spain; under the government of Silvio Berlusconi, Italy barred even the United Nations refugee agency from its center on the Italian island of Lampedusa. The current prime minister, Romano Prodi, allowed the agency in.

...Italy has nonetheless struck a secret accord with Libya, where it has built at least one detention camp and is funding two more, according to Rutvica Andrijasevic, a researcher at the Center on Migration, Policy and Society at the University of Oxford in England.

Source: Obscurity and confinement for migrants in Europe - International Herald Tribune

What really happened to Mr. Salerno? I don't have a clue. I do know that Government officials sometimes exceed their authority, act without concern for humanity, and are sometimes even abusive.

Sometimes.

But, I also know that much more often that people who have had interactions with the government that were not concluded to their satisfaction, or reporters looking for a story, will spin amazing tales out of thin air. In 25 years I had people tell hundreds of incredible lies about things I've allegedly done - under oath and in the newspaper. The first time you see your name in the newspaper in a story that is a fairy tale that misconstrues and distorts what really happened, well, it is surreal. Especially when it is based solely on the unfounded and unsubstantiated lies of someone who had a very evident motivation to lie about the events. It shakes your perception of how the world is supposed to be when you realize that just because it ain't true doesn't mean that somebody won't say it, or print it - or that some people won't believe it just because they heard it or read it.

By your own admission you're "a bit edgy". Maybe you should take a step back from the stuff you're reading. At least be more skeptical and critical. Play devil's advocate with some of this stuff before you swallow the hook. Just because the Times printed it doesn't mean it's the Gospel.

[Walt34]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

But, I also know that much more often that people who have had interactions with the government that were not concluded to their satisfaction, or reporters looking for a story, will spin amazing tales out of thin air. In 25 years I had people tell hundreds of incredible lies about things I've allegedly done - under oath and in the newspaper. The first time you see your name in the newspaper in a story that is a fairy tale that misconstrues and distorts what really happened, well, it is surreal. Especially when it is based solely on the unfounded and unsubstantiated lies of someone who had a very evident motivation to lie about the events. It shakes your perception of how the world is supposed to be when you realize that just because it ain't true doesn't mean that somebody won't say it, or print it - or that some people won't believe it just because they heard it or read it.

Well said. I can't count the number of time I saw some media story and thought "Well, they got the date, time, and location right but that's about all".

[ladelfina]

Leonidas, you make some good points, but a.) I have higher expectations of the US than of other nations b.) you have to respect a difference between the treatment of visitors, businesspeople and tourists versus those who arrive clandestinely in trucks or who wash up on the shore with no documents; it's not fair to compare the two, and the US does have its own detention camps for illegals.

Italians can indeed be racist, but as you reserve the right to question the original article, I reserve the right to question the French guy's assertions that he was systematically singled out solely due to skin color (instead, it was obviously because he was French!) Anyway, note that he was allowed to come and go, he just thought he was being questioned excessively.

They're both anecdotes, but the one I posted just touched a nerve because I have gone through that experience: of DH being hassled on entry to the US, with me being barked at and made to leave the area and go down to the baggage claim and wait for him 30-40 minutes with no news and no way to communicate or assist him. You just never know if your loved one will come out the other side, or not.

The chilling aspect, and what I take issue with, is not the searching or questioning part but the lack of recourse and the fact of being held incommunicado in a limbo zone where no rules apply and you have no rights. The rights that anyone would have on US soil don't apply, as -citizen or not- the airport security area is not considered US soil. Yet you don't have the rights of your home country either, and no one to represent you (maybe there should be consular officers from the visa-waiver countries stationed at the airports).

You may think things are exaggerated or couldn't happen, but from what I have seen of how the agents act this series of events sounds perfectly plausible. They're not particularly comprehensive of those who can't understand their questions and commands.

Should we just be happy that the US hasn't killed anyone yet?

The video shows the man screaming and writhing in pain on the floor shortly before he dies.

Four Royal Canadian Mounted Police converged on Dziekanski, who couldn't speak English and who had languished in the airport arrivals area for 10 hours after his flight arrived. It was the first time he'd been on a plane.

Dziekanski had been waiting for his mother, who told him to wait in the baggage area. But she couldn't get in there, couldn't get a message to him, and finally went home after being told he never arrived.

On the video, a bystander tried to calm Dziekanski down, but he didn't understand. Then, he picked up a computer and threw it, then tossed a piece of furniture.

Dziekanski appeared calm when the police arrived.

The video shows him backing up, raising his hands and turning away before the police stun him with the 50,000-volt Taser, sending him to the floor screaming before he's stunned again and the Mounties pin down his head and limbs to handcuff him.

Airport Taser Death "Shocking, Disgusting", Man Who Took Video Of Incident In Canadian Airport Describes It To Hannah Storm - CBS News

This 'fairy tale' is on tape.

[youbet]

ladelfina....

In another post, you told the story of your DH's stuggle to reside in the USA and of the red tape and unfair treatment that eventually caused him to give up. Perhaps it's for the best. As you point out, life here hasn't been up to par lately, sometimes an absolute hell. You've been able to live in a superior place enjoying untold benefits and quality of life we all envy. I think we all appreciate your concern for us still stuck here but perhaps a slight emphasis in focus from scorn and ridicle to constructive ideas would be helpful.

[Leonidas]

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this then.

As for Robert Dziekański's death, there are still a lot of unanswered questions regarding that - including the actual cause of death. But one thing is clear, he was not being held at the airport when the police became involved. He had been delayed clearing customs due to missing paperwork and once it was found in his luggage he quickly cleared customs, was free to come and go, and was in the arrival lounge. In fact, they told him to leave twice and then finally took him to the arrival lounge and told him to wait there (they had found a Polish speaker by then). He was in the customs zone when he died only because he walked back in. The police were called when he started throwing the furniture around. The official inquiry into the whole thing started recently, and I bet that CBSA will get some blame for not keeping track of Dziekański in the customs waiting area (he was just wandering around for hours) and then just telling him he was free to go when they knew his mother had been at the airport looking for him.

[FinanceDude]

Originally Posted by youbet

ladelfina....

In another post, you told the story of your DH's stuggle to reside in the USA and of the red tape and unfair treatment that eventually caused him to give up. Perhaps it's for the best. As you point out, life here hasn't been up to par lately, sometimes an absolute hell. You've been able to live in a superior place enjoying untold benefits and quality of life we all envy. I think we all appreciate your concern for us still stuck here but perhaps a slight emphasis in focus from scorn and ridicle to constructive ideas would be helpful.

Well after my family has been here for 6 generations in the USA, I am no doubt a homer. But I can't imagine living anywhere else. No doubt we as a country have some big issues, but to say we are barbarians because of a few incidents is a bit much.

As an example, I don't think Italy has a huge immigration problem, so it's not like millions of people are risking everything to go there

[ladelfina]

Italy is not some order of magnitude better; it's frustrating in different ways.

I don't want to be an Italian citizen. I want to be a US citizen. I pay US taxes and I vote in US elections. I just don't like certain things that are happening, especially when they affect my family and my money negatively. It's not some abstract exercise.

For folks who haved never lived in a manner even a little bit outside the general lines, it's easy to get complacent!

Here's the latest arbitrary annoyance/insult: Appears we get no stimulus payment.. because DH has a ITIN and not an SSN and we filed jointly. I don't even get what would be 'mine', though I could've if I'd filed singly.

Editorial: No Rebates for You
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/15/opinion/15thu1.html

Youbet, just consider that my little gift to you. There ya go: $1200.
Maybe you can use it for an Italian vacation!


Constructive ideas: stop pitting people against each other and treat everyone with fairness and respect. Institute a single-payer health plan. Encourage and streamline sensible immigration policies because immigrants are a far greater resource than they are a drain; US businesses, universities and cultural institutions shouldn't suffer the loss of talent and diversity. You can't have free markets unless people can move just as freely as corporations and capital.

[brewer12345]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Constructive ideas: stop pitting people against each other and treat everyone with fairness and respect. Institute a single-payer health plan. Encourage and streamline sensible immigration policies because immigrants are a far greater resource than they are a drain; US businesses, universities and cultural institutions shouldn't suffer the loss of talent and diversity. You can't have free markets unless people can move just as freely as corporations and capital.

There, see, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I agree that the US needs to do these things and I try to vote for candidates who I think will do at least some of them. But aside from that, there is very little (if anything) that I as an individual can do about it. In fact, the rational individual will take whatever steps they can to insulate themselves from the deleterious effects of the regime's destructive policies, and not spend all their waking hours whining about how terrible things are.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Italy is not some order of magnitude better; it's frustrating in different ways.

I don't want to be an Italian citizen. I want to be a US citizen. I pay US taxes and I vote in US elections. I just don't like certain things that are happening, especially when they affect my family and my money negatively. It's not some abstract exercise.

For folks who haved never lived in a manner even a little bit outside the general lines, it's easy to get complacent!

Here's the latest arbitrary annoyance/insult: Appears we get no stimulus payment.. because DH has a ITIN and not an SSN and we filed jointly. I don't even get what would be 'mine', though I could've if I'd filed singly.

Editorial: No Rebates for You
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/15/opinion/15thu1.html

Youbet, just consider that my little gift to you. There ya go: $1200.
Maybe you can use it for an Italian vacation!


Constructive ideas: stop pitting people against each other and treat everyone with fairness and respect. Institute a single-payer health plan. Encourage and streamline sensible immigration policies because immigrants are a far greater resource than they are a drain; US businesses, universities and cultural institutions shouldn't suffer the loss of talent and diversity. You can't have free markets unless people can move just as freely as corporations and capital.

Well that's a little better ladelfina. Remember, it's not that there aren't many, many opportunities for improvement, but sometimes you have to give folks some credit for all the good things going on as well.

Thanks for the $1200 offer, but DW and I do not qualify for the rebate either. I just didn't think to post it as a gripe here on the FIRE forum.....

Ref immigration - yes, we need a better policy. Millions here undocumented and millions more trying to get here. Who gets in? Who doesn't? Why? I don't know what the answer is since there are so many strong opinions for and against every solution. Our current policies are already more liberal (IMO - debatible I suppose) than most countries. Our tradition for many decades was total open door. Now that quotas and limitations are in place, as all other countries have, it seems restrictive.

No more open immigration. No more land rush for free land to settle the West. No more homesteaders. Income taxes! Social programs. It's a very, very different place than just a few decades ago. Another doubling of our population, coupled with crowding in the rest of the world, and we'll need yet another set of immigration policies different than anything we'll come up with today.

It's all about change. And change is good. Just a little painful from time to time.

[ladelfina]

youbet, I appreciate your comments and your world view. I'm still kind of startled at the chiding and I see this has been tagged "lunacy". Is this or isn't this the Soap Box??

I didn't mean to gripe about the rebate per se, except that it was based ONLY on DH's being a non-citizen US taxpayer instead of a citizen, and that I was 'punished' to boot. That just seems based on xenophobia and not on the economics of the thing (which are debatable to begin with). I had my wish list of English-language books on Amazon all picked out!

[Notmuchlonger]

Millions of people probably have no issue of leaving and going to the US. Yet you get a few that were probably done wrong. Big deal. **** happens.

[ladelfina]

Big deal. **** happens.
Normal guy gets jailed inexplicably and can never return.

If that happened to an innocent American tourist in France or China, you can bet a lot more people would think it's a big deal.

Another innocent guy dies.
Big deal. **** happens.

Look, this is the Soap Box.

Every post on the forum is an actual human's point of view. I read a lot of threads about other people's issues -- from dogs dying to getting a bad deal at Circuit City-- and somehow I don't feel the need to abuse the posters, or waste my time writing "Big deal. Your dog died and Circuit City screwed up. **** happens."

(Geez.. and they say I'm the one who isn't being constructive.)

[RunningBum]

I hear ya, ladelfina. I started to type in a longer post but I don't feel like getting all worked up about it right now since it wouldn't really do any good here anyway. But yes, I'm concerned about this kind of thing.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Is this or isn't this the Soap Box??

And that's a good point. There have been a few posters starting numerous "alarm" threads and I've detected a number of us growing weary of them. Of course, we should vote with our feet and just leave the area, but it's always tempting to say something..... Your "alarm" thread came on top of many others and in a similar format....

The other area where I'm noticing some push-back is with non-Americans who have a hair trigger on injecting non-constructive USA criticism at every opportunity..... and, of course, insisting their homeland is flawless in all regards! It's their right, but can get tiresome as well.

But, all in all, I think we do a pretty good job on this forum of respecting one another.

Regarding your post specifically, when you say

Ask ANYONE whether they really thought a few years back that things like this could happen in the USA, and they would have said you were crazy.

I'd have to disagree. In fact, I know you're wrong. You could have asked ME a few years back and I would have said that yes, this could happen. After all, we put innocent people in jail, we allow the KKK and Nazi party to hold demonstrations and protect them while they do, we send foreign aid to be confiscated by corrupt leaders while American children starve, we"ve had military drafts and sent innocent Americans to die in ridiculous wars such as Viet Nam. We..... We..... We.... I could go on and on. So yep, I would have absolutely believed that Mr Salerno's case was possible and would not have thought you were crazy if you had asked me a few years back. Therefore your statement is wrong.

But because Mr Salerno's unfortunate situation is close to home for you, I understand your extreme indignity and disbelief.

[Meadbh]

Many years ago, when I still lived in Ireland, a perfectly legitimate visitor from an Asian country was unjustly deta