And so it begins...CO and MD offer bill for single payer

[dgoldenz]

Well, it took a few days more than expected, but right on cue, Vermont has passed a bill in the House to become the first state with a single payer system. How will they pay for it? Just charge businesses more money, of course!

Universal health care bill passes, 89-47 | Vtdigger.org

Hsiao proposed a 14.5 percent payroll tax, and also suggested that an income tax could also be an option. The House Health Care Committee decided the “details” are beyond the Legislature’s purview for the time being. The board and a team of eight researchers from the Department of Banking, Insurance, Securities and Health Care Administration will devise the system; lawmakers will be responsible for approving a financing plan (2013), a budget (2014) and plans for implementation of the system (2012).

14.5%! How is this saving money again? Now your individual person making $250k gets to pay $36,250/year for health insurance. That sounds way better than $100-400/month. What a great system.

Scheuerman said under the proposal, self-insured companies would pay double – they would pay insurance premiums and potentially a payroll tax, as suggested by Hsiao’s report. Scheuerman said a number of large, self-insured companies could be affected, and she rattled off a list: GW Plastics, General Electric, General Dynamics, Pizagalli Construction, Plasan, King Arthur Flour, Cabot Creamery, CVPS, among others.

By the time companies are done paying for this, they won't have any money left to pay employees with apparently. I foresee a massive exodus of business to other states coming.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

I'm calling it now. June 3rd, 2013, the first bread lines in Vermont.

 

[samclem]

14.5%! How is this saving money again? Now your individual person making $250k gets to pay $36,250/year for health insurance. That sounds way better than $100-400/month. What a great system.

Under what system are total health care insurance costs $100-$400 per month? I'm no fan of government mandated universal care, but . . .
If the citizens of Vermont want to bankrupt their state and drive citizens and businesses out, that's their business I guess. It's a different kettle-o-fish on a national level

 

[dgoldenz]

Under what system are total health care insurance costs $100-$400 per month? I'm no fan of government mandated universal care, but . . .
If the citizens of Vermont want to bankrupt their state and drive citizens and businesses out, that's their business I guess. It's a different kettle-o-fish on a national level

Even in MA, where costs for insurance are higher than other states, individual policies are $300-500/month. In states with full underwriting like VA, most people can get an HSA policy with a $3-5k deductible for $75-250/month. That's the problem with a payroll tax - individuals pay a far higher cost than families for the same benefit.

 

[M Paquette]

Under what system are total health care insurance costs $100-$400 per month? I'm no fan of government mandated universal care, but . . .

Most any high deductible plan for a healthy 25 year old. Note that they might be on the hook for another average $400 a month to meet the deductible.

Oh, you're over 50? That's different...

 

[dgoldenz]

Most any high deductible plan for a healthy 25 year old. Note that they might be on the hook for another average $400 a month to meet the deductible.

Oh, you're over 50? That's different...

But how often will they meet the deductible on average, once every 10 years? A 60-year old male in VA in good health can get a $3k deductible HSA plan for $240/month, FYI.

 

[Purron]

This mess for people under 65 will probably be fixed when I turn 65.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[FinanceDude]

Suits me. Better yet, have the feddle gubmint pull its pants up and implement a single payor system.

Don't worry, they will. However, we will need to raise your marginal tax rate 15% to pay for it, but you're cool with that, right?

 

[chinaco]

What's the problem?

 

[RetiredGypsy]

Don't worry, they will. However, we will need to raise your marginal tax rate 15% to pay for it, but you're cool with that, right?

105%, if they actually want to pretend it's going to work. 200% with government efficiency.

 

[chinaco]

You have to wonder if some of those states that initiate a single payer program will be able to entice businesses that are interested in shedding health care costs from their books.

While they may have some sort of tax related to it, much of the cost will be shifted to the consumers of health care services.

It might turn into a competitive advantage for certain businesses... assuming they provide health care benefits.

 

[cb7010]

No thanks. I will worry about my own health and health care and pay for whatever health care I receive out of my own pocket. At some point, if the government becomes too onerous and demands more of my money to pay for other's care, I will seriously consider taking myself and my money to some other part of the world and look at the great American social utopia experiment from afar.

 

[donheff]

No thanks. I will worry about my own health and health care and pay for whatever health care I receive out of my own pocket. At some point, if the government becomes too onerous and demands more of my money to pay for other's care, I will seriously consider taking myself and my money to some other part of the world and look at the great American social utopia experiment from afar.

When you move, unless you go to a third world country, you will probably find yourself under government sponsored universal health care more extensive than anything the US is likely to adopt.

 

[cb7010]

When you move, unless you go to a third world country, you will probably find yourself under government sponsored universal health care more extensive than anything the US is likely to adopt.

Central America here I come!

It's just so uninspiring to see so many people wanting something for free from the government (and by free I mean paid for by your neighbor's tax money).

 

[donheff]

No thanks. I will worry about my own health and health care and pay for whatever health care I receive out of my own pocket.

Central America here I come!

It's just so uninspiring to see so many people wanting something for free from the government (and by free I mean paid for by your neighbor's tax money).

Very principled approach. (sarcasm emoticon missing). In the pre-Obamacare environment millions loose (or never get) health insurance through no fault of their own. Your self stated approach (out of my own pocket) only works because you would be willing to steal your care from the rest of us if you suffered a devastating uninsured illness or injury and ended up in an emergency room. No civilized country (including ours) would throw you out and no set of pockets (outside of the top 2%+) could afford the bills. You would be forced to default on your bills and dump them on us.

 

[lets-retire]

You would be forced to default on your bills and dump them on us.

Or maybe set up a payment plan with the hospital and pay for treatment the way most people pay for almost all large purchases, on credit.

 

[cb7010]

Very principled approach. (sarcasm emoticon missing). In the pre-Obamacare environment millions loose (or never get) health insurance through no fault of their own. Your self stated approach (out of my own pocket) only works because you would be willing to steal your care from the rest of us if you suffered a devastating uninsured illness or injury and ended up in an emergency room. No civilized country (including ours) would throw you out and no set of pockets (outside of the top 2%+) could afford the bills. You would be forced to default on your bills and dump them on us.

Your post illustrates the problem with our entire system and way of thinking. It assumes life is inherently fair and that every human being deserves by some birthright to be given a certain high level of healthcare whether they can pay or not. I don't believe this at all. And, this whole concept of "through no fault of their own" doesn't fly with me either. People, irrespective of the challenges they were born into or encounter, need to take responsibility for their health and lives, period.

I can control my health to a certain degree. I can control what foods I put in my body, how much sleep and exercise I get, etc..Even then, I might very well have congenital problems or just be unlucky and get sick or impaired or to die young. This is life and this is natural law.

I do agree that we could and should do many things to bring down the cost of health care and that would be of benefit to all.

I simply don't see myself as selfish, if I get sick and can't pay for it; it would be immoral for me to be a drag on society and/or to stick you or anyone else with my bills against thier will. I am only one of over 6 billion humans on this planet and my death ultimately won't mean much one way or another to the survival of our species. If there are certain people out there that just can't handle the way nature works when it culls out the weak in a species to allow the species to get stronger; then they can certainly form private charities and pool their money voluntarily to whatever group of people or cause they like. Just think, money getting to less fortunate people without the involvement of lobbyists, politicians, government agencies...

 

[eridanus]

I simply don't see myself as selfish,

That's one way to look at it.

 

[donheff]

Or maybe set up a payment plan with the hospital and pay for treatment the way most people pay for almost all large purchases, on credit.

I am talking about a system (as it is pre-Obamacare) that does not officially cover catastrophic costs. They are not all that uncommon and they are called catastrophic for a reason -- they are. After such a loss all but the top 2% or so would be incapable of paying the bills. A payment plan would be a useless gesture for bills in the hundreds of thousands or millions for someone with normal earnings or someone disabled and no longer earning.

Your post illustrates the problem with our entire system and way of thinking. It assumes life is inherently fair and that every human being deserves by some birthright to be given a certain high level of healthcare whether they can pay or not. I don't believe this at all. ...

I simply don't see myself as selfish, if I get sick and can't pay for it; it would be immoral for me to be a drag on society and/or to stick you or anyone else with my bills against thier will.

See above. You would be covered. I suppose a "principled" position would be that in the world you espouse you would be bared from the emergency room if you had no insurance and couldn't post a huge bond. Absent that how would you pay?

 

[lets-retire]

I am talking about a system (as it is pre-Obamacare) that does not officially cover catastrophic costs. They are not all that uncommon and they are called catastrophic for a reason -- they are. After such a loss all but the top 2% or so would be incapable of paying the bills. A payment plan would be a useless gesture for bills in the hundreds of thousands or millions for someone with normal earnings or someone disabled and no longer earning.

Right. All the hospital needs to cover is it's expenses. Everything else is profit. Don't take this to mean all they need is to cover their expenses for every procedure. I simply mean if the hospital covers it's expenses then it won't go out of business.

Catastrophic care is not a very common occurrence, although it is more common than is should be due to people's inability to control themselves and take care of their bodies. If everybody had a catastrophic illness then the cost of insurance would go up to the cost of the catastrophic care.

 

[eridanus]

See above. You would be covered. I suppose a "principled" position would be that in the world you espouse you would be bared from the emergency room if you had no insurance and couldn't post a huge bond. Absent that how would you pay?

Actually, a "principled" position would also opt out of employer sponsored health care when reaching the age of ~34. Otherwise, it puts an undue burden on the younger co-workers, who unfairly pay higher premiums because the old farts are in the pool.

In fact, the only "sane" health care plan is an individual plan or to go naked. Even the state high-risk-pool is placing an undue burden on the state taxpayers.

 

[chinaco]

No thanks. I will worry about my own health and health care and pay for whatever health care I receive out of my own pocket. At some point, if the government becomes too onerous and demands more of my money to pay for other's care, I will seriously consider taking myself and my money to some other part of the world and look at the great American social utopia experiment from afar.

Do you pay for all of your health care out of your pocket today? Do you buy your insurance privately (do not use an employee type plan)?

 

[snodog]

At some point, if the government becomes too onerous and demands more of my money to pay for other's care, I will seriously consider taking myself and my money to some other part of the world and look at the great American social utopia experiment from afar.

Sorry, even if you move to another Country you will still have to pay US taxes. Looks like your stuck here in our "social utopia".

 

[huusom]

Works for me. The sooner the better.

+1

 

[RustyShackleford]

Since this is America, and it's pretty much inconceivable that I could say anything that would make the people who disagree with me see my way of thinking (or vice versa, and not to say America is unique) ... the best I can do is to interject some humor:

Mitt Romney Haunted By Past Of Trying To Help Uninsured Sick People | The Onion - America's Finest News Source