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Old 04-30-2011, 06:00 PM   #61
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I'm in favor of guaranteeing a basic level of care, but we simply can not afford Cadillac coverage for everybody. Example would be to provide expensive cancer treatments or organ transplants to people in their 80s. I know that sounds harsh, but it's reality.
But it's not reality, and that's what you're complaining about, isn't it? So far as I know, cancer treatments and organ transplants are provided to people in their 80s and to younger people on the same basis, solely on how likely the treatment will be to help them recover and how well they will tolerate side effects, not on their age (though naturally age is a factor affecting prognosis) and not on the cost of treatment. No one in sight is in favor of throwing old people under the bus except you.
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:13 PM   #62
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If you are speaking of Medicaid, or other state run programs, they are very limiting and restrictive, and there are many people who do not qualify who remain uninsured or under insured.
The major reason a person wouldn't qualify for Medicaid is because they have too much money. When they have less money, they will be insured by Medicaid.

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As for not wanting to be forced by government to contribute, we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
Yes. I have no problem being forced to contribute for the functions of government described in the Constitution. This money that is taken from people represents the hours of their life used to obtain it. Taking these funds from them represents an infringement on their liberty, and should be undertaken only with clear authority. If we want people to have their health care, houses, food, entertainment, cars, telephones, or anything else provided by other people through government takings, then it should be specifically authorized, and the ultimate appropriate level of these "takings" described.

A heart surgeon and surgical team can save a life and give a patient a drastically improved standard of living in less than two hours. It represents a tiny contribution of their time to do this. It's nothing, really. Should government force them to do these surgeries for people who need them? Why not--if it's wrong to deny patients care, then why not compel medical people to do the surgeries for free? This certainly represents less of an infringement of liberties than to force 20 families to work a total of 1000 extra hours to earn the money that is taken from them in taxes to pay for the heart surgery through Medicaid. How can it be right to force the donation of 1000 hours of labor rather than maybe 20 hours for the surgical team? Just as it's wrong to compel the doctors to give of their time, it is equally wrong to compel the twenty families to give of their time. And taking their money is very nearly the same as taking the time they used to earn it.
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:18 PM   #63
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+2

The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
Americans, including government officials, are terribly provincial and arrogant. Most of them are not able to read foreign publications, and for the most part don't care anyway what some other country is doing. They just assume it's no good, or if they are better informed and more sophisticated they think that "it wouldn't work here", because the American electorate is too stupid to know what is in its best interest. This last is likely true, unfortunately.

So we go around reinventing wheels- but ours are expensive and out of true because we won't stoop to understand how people elsewhere have been making excellent, round wheels for generations.

Ha
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:31 PM   #64
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Americans, including government officials, are terribly provincial and arrogant.

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The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
We'll order some even broader brushes so you guys can continue in this enlightened vein.
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:38 PM   #65
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+2

The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
Yes, I am very surprised how ill informed so many citizens are on this important subject in this country. They listen to all the propaganda spin put out by the insurance companies disguised as news stations or talk radio, and think they know the actual facts.

Other countries seeing us fight against health care reform think we have lost our marbles. It is inconceivable that so many can be so gullible and uninformed about health care in the rest of the world.
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:21 PM   #66
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Other countries seeing us fight against health care reform think we have lost our marbles.
We have countries that perform cognitive processes?

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Most other industrial countries agree with me
And countries that have opinions?

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It is inconceivable that so many can be so gullible and uninformed about health care in the rest of the world.
(i.e. "Those who don't see things my way are gullible and uninformed.")
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:37 PM   #67
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We have countries that perform cognitive processes?
It is a common convention to attribute characteristics of individuals also to groups or organizations of those individuals. E.g., "The WSJ says/thinks/agrees that ..."
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:38 PM   #68
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Yup, Samclem. Your right. Those folks not receiving Medicaid make entirely too much money>

Medicaid Eligibility and Income Limits

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One of the most frequent questions about Medicaid eligibility pertains to individual income limits. Every state has a slightly different amount for individuals and couples, but there are several other factors such as the total number of dependents, resources, medical needs, Medicare status, etc. Below we have outlined the some of the criteria used to establish Medicaid income limits. Feel free to continue reading or go directly to your state’s healthcare resources here: Medicaid Insurance - Children's Healthcare Plans - Disabled Healthcare - Prescription Drug Assistance


Resources (assets) can include money in personal bank accounts, CD’s, annuities, bonds, stocks, mineral rights and even loans. Typically the amount of resources one may have access to on a monthly basis cannot exceed $1,100-$2,000 for individuals and $2,000-$3,000 for couples. Please check your State’s specific guidelines.
Medicaid income limits also vary by state. The range for individuals is typically $600-$800 and $1,000-$1,350 for couples. Some states use a formula based on the individual’s federal SSI benefit level. In these instances, the eligibility limits are usually three times the SSI benefit. This amount is adjusted downward per your state’s guidelines for each dependant you provide for.


#2 The Constitution


Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution refers to the “general welfare” thus: “The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .”

Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:02 PM   #69
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Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.
I won't call you stupid. I will say that the Constitution goes on for many pages about the responsibilities of the various branches of government. The provision of health care by the government (Medicare, federal funds for Medicaid, federal funds for CHIP) now consumes 21% of total federal spending. That's more than a footnote and perhaps deserves a tad more definition than the stretching of a two-word clause. Let's, as a nation, have this debate and get it in writing as an amendment. Why not?

A road contributes to the general welfare. Laws that allow efficient trade and enforcement of contracts contribute to the general welfare. Replacement of a person's knee joint contributes to an individual's welfare.
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:17 AM   #70
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#2 The Constitution


Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution refers to the “general welfare” thus: “The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .”

Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.
A person must have food shelter and clothing to survive. The government must provide those items because of the general welfare clause. A person should also engage in physical activity in order to thrive, so the government must provide gym memberships for the general welfare. People with limited parenting skills, as assessed by a test given when they have a child, should not be allowed to raise children. Anybody not able to pass the test must have their children taken away and raised by the state for the general welfare of the population. These ridiculous examples can go on and on.

Call me stupid but I think "general welfare" might just include everything.
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:39 AM   #71
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The major reason a person wouldn't qualify for Medicaid is because they have too much money. When they have less money, they will be insured by Medicaid.
Thats just the point Sam. You lose your job and your guaranteed group insurance and find yourself uninsurable due to a preexisting condition. you get a serious illness and lose everything you spent a lifetime building up. Preventing that isn't providing for the general welfare? You could cite alternatives - COBRA, state pools, etc., but they just prove the point that government is essential in this arena. Even the Medicare you cite - without government interventions in HC we would be even worse that we are. Left to their own private insurance companies would simply nott be a solution. We all want government to intervene to some point, lets intervene far enough to remove the nightmare scenarios from the system.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:46 AM   #72
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Thats just the point Sam. You lose your job and your guaranteed group insurance and find yourself uninsurable due to a preexisting condition. you get a serious illness and lose everything you spent a lifetime building up. Preventing that isn't providing for the general welfare? You could cite alternatives - COBRA, state pools, etc., but they just prove the point that government is essential in this arena. Even the Medicare you cite - without government interventions in HC we would be even worse that we are. Left to their own private insurance companies would simply nott be a solution. We all want government to intervene to some point, lets intervene far enough to remove the nightmare scenarios from the system.
I understand the point: A lot of bad things can happen if you don't have medical insurance. The underlying principle I think we're discussing is: Under what conditions do I have the right to forcibly take the property of others, through the government, for my own use? The majority of people have high health care costs at some point, so this isn't an unusual situation, it's one we can all anticipate.
Now, from a practical standpoint (where we are socially and politically in this country) I see the value of limited "takings" of this type--because the SCOTUS doesn't appear willing to stop it, and because the people are of a mood to vote more for themselves at the expense of a smaller minority. So, I suppose the best thing we can do is to field the type of collectivization system that does the least damage to personal freedom while meeting popular demands. Luckily, Europe has travelled down this road, seen the edge of the cliff, and is coming back. With any luck we'll not make the same mistake.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:05 AM   #73
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I am a physician and the reality is most health care does not fix things that are broken. Ok there are exceptions like broken bones, infections and plugged arteries. What is free is living healthy. So forget about healthcare and don't smoke, control your weight, exercise, drink water and take vitamins and you will be better off then every going to the ER. Many people die in the ER and Hospital. Most of the healthcare dollar is spent on the dieing patient. God heals, the physician and hospital charge for Gods work.
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:11 AM   #74
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I am a physician and the reality is most health care does not fix things that are broken. Ok there are exceptions like broken bones, infections and plugged arteries. What is free is living healthy. So forget about healthcare and don't smoke, control your weight, exercise, drink water and take vitamins and you will be better off then every going to the ER. Many people die in the ER and Hospital. Most of the healthcare dollar is spent on the dieing patient. God heals, the physician and hospital charge for Gods work.
You sound more like a preacher to me. Or if a physician, one practicing wholistic medicine. Just a guess. I'm not casting any judgment here. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on a lot of medical treatment options.

Of course bad things can happen in a hospital and some doctors only make the patient worse by continued treatment. No one would disagree we all would be better off if we all lived a healthy life style and never have to go to the hospital. But, I would guess a lot of lives are saved in the hospital as well.

You say that you are a 54 yr. old physician looking to retire because of changes made in America. Just curious what changes in America you are referring to.
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Old 05-01-2011, 01:25 PM   #75
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Under what conditions do I have the right to forcibly take the property of others, through the government, for my own use?
When it comes to taxes, evidently under any conditions whatsoever. Just because something is not in the Constitution, that doesn't make it unconstitutional.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:20 AM   #76
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When it comes to taxes, evidently under any conditions whatsoever. Just because something is not in the Constitution, that doesn't make it unconstitutional.
From a strict constitutionalist's viewpoint, the US Air Force was not provided for in the Constitution. It only mentions the Army and Navy.

You're also not "innocent until proven guilty." It's not in the Constitution either.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:45 AM   #77
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Just because something is not in the Constitution, that doesn't make it unconstitutional.
Technically this is incorrect, at least according to the 10th Amendment. I know in practice it is a bit different. In my thinking (I know not really a good source) if something had been invented when the Constitution was written and it wasn't provided for in that document it is a fairly good indication that the writers did not want the government to provide that item to the populace. As pointed out the Air Force was not mentioned when the document was written, but then again airplanes hadn't been invented yet either. I think it could be reasonably interpreted that when the founders wrote about the Army and Navy (the only military forces at the time) they were referring to the entire military. Just like when the founders failed to include to health care. They knew about medicine but did not include it because they did not want the federal government to provide it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:09 AM   #78
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Technically this is incorrect, at least according to the 10th Amendment. I know in practice it is a bit different. In my thinking (I know not really a good source) if something had been invented when the Constitution was written and it wasn't provided for in that document it is a fairly good indication that the writers did not want the government to provide that item to the populace. As pointed out the Air Force was not mentioned when the document was written, but then again airplanes hadn't been invented yet either. I think it could be reasonably interpreted that when the founders wrote about the Army and Navy (the only military forces at the time) they were referring to the entire military. Just like when the founders failed to include to health care. They knew about medicine but did not include it because they did not want the federal government to provide it.
My understanding is the debate is about access to health care insurance as anyone who can pay can get care now. Paying is a problem for many however. Health Insurance like the Air force did not exist when the Constitution was written as a point of clarification only to your statement. I am certainly not a constitutional scholar or a lawyer and I have very mixed feelings about the issue being discussed but my point above is a valid clarification only.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:14 AM   #79
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My understanding is the debate is about access to health care insurance as anyone who can pay can get care now. Paying is a problem for many however.
Only under Obamacare. Without mandates under the new law many people are uninsurable. Some (but not all) states have high risk insurance pools but some people are simply uninsurable.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:30 AM   #80
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I think it could be reasonably interpreted that when the founders wrote about the Army and Navy (the only military forces at the time) they were referring to the entire military.
Revisionist.

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Just like when the founders failed to include to health care. They knew about medicine but did not include it because they did not want the federal government to provide it.
They had roads in the 1700s but they didn't provide for an interstate highway system. Surely they would have provided for it in the Constitution?!?

During the 1700s, health care was a visit to the local bleeder or dentist. If you didn't die, you lost a leg. Times have changed. It can be reasonably interpreted that, given the changes since then, the founders would have created universal health care.

Modern society simply needs an Air Force, highways, and universal health care. The founders were not clairvoyant.
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