And so it begins...CO and MD offer bill for single payer

I simply don't see myself as selfish, if I get sick and can't pay for it; it would be immoral for me to be a drag on society and/or to stick you or anyone else with my bills against thier will.

Part of the issue is that we, as a society, have decided that any person that needs life saving emergency care should get it. Do you disagree with this?
In other words, if someone who can't afford it gets hit by a bus and needs expensive surgery, should they get it on society's dime (I do:)).
 
In other words, if someone who can't afford it gets hit by a bus and needs expensive surgery, should they get it on society's dime (I do:)).

Well, there's the problem. :rolleyes: That person on the gurney just isn't engaging in rational free market behavior and shopping around for the best price on the needed treatment. Now, a real Galtian Rugged Individualist would sit up in the back of the ambulance, and demand to see a price list for treatment of injuries likely to be received from being hit by a bus. He'd then force the ambulance driver to take him to the hospital offering the best deal. Dagny Taggert would probably just shoot the ambulance driver if he failed to take her to the right hospital. Damn moochers...
:greetings10:

Injured people are inefficient economic actors.
 
Well, there's the problem. :rolleyes: That person on the gurney just isn't engaging in rational free market behavior and shopping around for the best price on the needed treatment. Now, a real Galtian Rugged Individualist would sit up in the back of the ambulance, and demand to see a price list for treatment of injuries likely to be received from being hit by a bus. He'd then force the ambulance driver to take him to the hospital offering the best deal. Dagny Taggert would probably just shoot the ambulance driver if he failed to take her to the right hospital. Damn moochers...
:greetings10:

Injured people are inefficient economic actors.

Because I live in the boonies, I have medical helicopter insurance. Trouble is there are 3 services in our area. If you need air transport you have a 33% chance of getting your plan.

So I would say, rattlesnake bite, heart attack, head injury, I will wait for the free ride. I ride out is 10-14k I'll take my chances.

My neighbors who are both EMT's already told me forget it, you get whoever comes. And since they are so close I guess I am overruled.:whistle:
 
Zathras said:
Part of the issue is that we, as a society, have decided that any person that needs life saving emergency care should get it. Do you disagree with this?
In other words, if someone who can't afford it gets hit by a bus and needs expensive surgery, should they get it on society's dime (I do:)).

I'm in favor of guaranteeing a basic level of care, but we simply can not afford Cadillac coverage for everybody. Example would be to provide expensive cancer treatments or organ transplants to people in their 80s. I know that sounds harsh, but it's reality.
 
I wish the state of Vermont luck. Maybe it will work out and they'll save a ton of money and everyone there will be happy with their taxes, their choices, and their health care. If so, perhaps other states can learn some lessons. If it doesn't go well (expanding ER room lines, expanding state health care costs, as seen in MA), then we'll all learn from that, too.

As long as federal funds aren't pumped in to make it a success, I can't see any reason to oppose the idea--if you don't live in VT.
 
No thanks. I will worry about my own health and health care and pay for whatever health care I receive out of my own pocket. At some point, if the government becomes too onerous and demands more of my money to pay for other's care, I will seriously consider taking myself and my money to some other part of the world and look at the great American social utopia experiment from afar.

Obviously there is a significant difference in the way you and other people view an ideal society. Those of us who favor some form of universal care, do want to see everyone covered, even if it costs us more personally.
I could not in good consciousness condone a mother losing her child because she couldn't afford the needed medicine or treatment to save her son. I know that our country is made up of diverse individuals with very different capabilities and not everyone is going to be able to work for a mega corporation, with wonderful benefits, a 401K and sustain a two parent family unit.

Most other industrial countries agree with me, and their citizens feel an obligation toward their fellow man, and are willing to share in costs even when it costs higher wage earners more in order to provide basic health care for everyone.

Read T.R. Reid "The Healing of America" It outlines the health care system other countries have adapted across the globe to insure everyone can receive health care when needed. We are the "only" industrial country country that does not. Heck even poor countries like Mexico have a government low cost insurance plan available for it's citizens.

Yes we have fiscal problems, and health care has become very expensive, but all the rest of the countries faced the same problem and figured out a way to do it. I think it was Taiwan (don't hold me to it) that was one of the last to join the fold. They formed a committee and decided to travel to many of the other countries (Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, England etc. etc.) and look closely at their health care systems and made up a list for each country of what was "good" about their system (worked) and what didn't work with their system. Then they came home and put together a plan that adapted what "worked" for other countries and made sure to avoid what did not.

The Medicare system is broke, because the government is only covering seniors who are inherently sick and the insurance companies get the younger population, who are generally healthy, and make record profits. Now what might happen if the government was able to use some of that profit to offset the expense of the elderly?
I think we would be able to balance the scale a little better.

The point of all this being, that most other countries consider it a moral obligation to care for one another, and they think it would be morally wrong to deny health care to someone because they did not have sufficient income to pay for it.

Now if you think that being an American exempts you from the rest of the world and humanity, then there is little more I can say on the matter Perhaps "American Exceptional ism" at it's best.
 
Emphasis added:
The point of all this being, that most other countries consider it a moral obligation to care for one another, and they think it would be morally wrong to deny health care to someone because they did not have sufficient income to pay for it.

America has a safety net to provide medical care for the poor. You may not like the level of that net or how the care is administered, but it's not accurate to imply that it doesn't exist.

And I'd like to hear of a single country that provides every type of medical care to anyone, regardless of ability to pay. Go ahead--I'll wait. There are none. So the situation you describe is a matter of degree, not a binary situation.

Most people, and especially Americans, voluntarily give away their own possessions to help others. This is a very good measure of the generosity of a people. I have a hard time with the idea that it is somehow morally upright for a majority of people to vote to use the power of the government to take the personal property of a minority of their fellow citizens to "help others."
For Americans who want to do more to help others, please give until it hurts. That's true charity, and it's a tremendous virtue, and a real demonstration of your love and caring for other people. But no one should feel better about themselves because they asked the government to mug someone else to benefit their particular pool of worthy recipients (no matter how the fact is packaged and dressed up).
 
modhatter said:
The Medicare system is broke, because the government is only covering seniors who are inherently sick and the insurance companies get the younger population, who are generally healthy, and make record profits. Now what might happen if the government was able to use some of that profit to offset the expense of the elderly?
I think we would be able to balance the scale a little better.

+2

The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
 
America has a safety net to provide medical care for the poor. You may not like the level of that net or how the care is administered, but it's not accurate to imply that it doesn't exist.

And I'd like to hear of a single country that provides every type of medical care to anyone, regardless of ability to pay. There are none. So the situation you describe is a matter of degree, not a binary situation.

Most people, and especially Americans, voluntarily give away their own possessions to help others. This is a very good measure of the generosity of a people. I have a hard time with the idea that it is somehow morally upright for a majority of people to vote to use the power of the government to take the personal property of a minority of their fellow citizens to "help others."
For Americans who want to do more to help others, please give until it hurts. That's true charity, and it's a tremendous virtue. But no one should feel better about themselves because they asked the government to mug someone else (no matter how the fact is packaged and dressed up).

If you are speaking of Medicaid, or other state run programs, they are very limiting and restrictive, and there are many people who do not qualify who remain uninsured or under insured.

As for not wanting to be forced by government to contribute, (or as you put it ask our government to mug someone else) we will just have to agree to disagree on that. We are forced to contribute through our taxes to pay for our roads, schools, clean water, food safety and defense etc. etc. Why can't medical care be part of the equation? You don't think it's as important as all the other things we pay for?

You appear to be financially set, and feel you could handle what ever medical costs might come your way. What if you weren't "so" set and you lost your job and your insurance and then had a bad auto accident or got cancer.

Your not poor enough to get medicaid, your not old enough to get medicare, so you have to sell everything you own including your home and empty your not so large bank account. I am painting this word picture to illustrate what fears many Americans must live with on a daily basis. You are fortunate that you don't.

Of course the level of care will vary with those who can afford the best of the best. I am not arguing this point and I do not begrudge those who could afford the best.
Hopefully they earned it and deserve it, just like the fancy car and fancy home if they so choose.

But basic care with a reasonable safety net for the rest of the population is what I am addressing.
 
I'm in favor of guaranteeing a basic level of care, but we simply can not afford Cadillac coverage for everybody. Example would be to provide expensive cancer treatments or organ transplants to people in their 80s. I know that sounds harsh, but it's reality.
But it's not reality, and that's what you're complaining about, isn't it? So far as I know, cancer treatments and organ transplants are provided to people in their 80s and to younger people on the same basis, solely on how likely the treatment will be to help them recover and how well they will tolerate side effects, not on their age (though naturally age is a factor affecting prognosis) and not on the cost of treatment. No one in sight is in favor of throwing old people under the bus except you.
 
If you are speaking of Medicaid, or other state run programs, they are very limiting and restrictive, and there are many people who do not qualify who remain uninsured or under insured.
The major reason a person wouldn't qualify for Medicaid is because they have too much money. When they have less money, they will be insured by Medicaid.

As for not wanting to be forced by government to contribute, we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
Yes. I have no problem being forced to contribute for the functions of government described in the Constitution. This money that is taken from people represents the hours of their life used to obtain it. Taking these funds from them represents an infringement on their liberty, and should be undertaken only with clear authority. If we want people to have their health care, houses, food, entertainment, cars, telephones, or anything else provided by other people through government takings, then it should be specifically authorized, and the ultimate appropriate level of these "takings" described.

A heart surgeon and surgical team can save a life and give a patient a drastically improved standard of living in less than two hours. It represents a tiny contribution of their time to do this. It's nothing, really. Should government force them to do these surgeries for people who need them? Why not--if it's wrong to deny patients care, then why not compel medical people to do the surgeries for free? This certainly represents less of an infringement of liberties than to force 20 families to work a total of 1000 extra hours to earn the money that is taken from them in taxes to pay for the heart surgery through Medicaid. How can it be right to force the donation of 1000 hours of labor rather than maybe 20 hours for the surgical team? Just as it's wrong to compel the doctors to give of their time, it is equally wrong to compel the twenty families to give of their time. And taking their money is very nearly the same as taking the time they used to earn it.
 
+2

The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
Americans, including government officials, are terribly provincial and arrogant. Most of them are not able to read foreign publications, and for the most part don't care anyway what some other country is doing. They just assume it's no good, or if they are better informed and more sophisticated they think that "it wouldn't work here", because the American electorate is too stupid to know what is in its best interest. This last is likely true, unfortunately.

So we go around reinventing wheels- but ours are expensive and out of true because we won't stoop to understand how people elsewhere have been making excellent, round wheels for generations.

Ha
 
Americans, including government officials, are terribly provincial and arrogant.


The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.
We'll order some even broader brushes so you guys can continue in this enlightened vein.
 
+2

The problem is that greedy profiteers have convinced an uninformed populace to protest against their own best interests. Most haven't lived 500 miles from their birth places let alone become aware of successful healthcare in other geographies.

Yes, I am very surprised how ill informed so many citizens are on this important subject in this country. They listen to all the propaganda spin put out by the insurance companies disguised as news stations or talk radio, and think they know the actual facts.

Other countries seeing us fight against health care reform think we have lost our marbles. It is inconceivable that so many can be so gullible and uninformed about health care in the rest of the world.
 
Other countries seeing us fight against health care reform think we have lost our marbles.
We have countries that perform cognitive processes?

Most other industrial countries agree with me
And countries that have opinions?

It is inconceivable that so many can be so gullible and uninformed about health care in the rest of the world.
(i.e. "Those who don't see things my way are gullible and uninformed.")
 
We have countries that perform cognitive processes?
It is a common convention to attribute characteristics of individuals also to groups or organizations of those individuals. E.g., "The WSJ says/thinks/agrees that ..."
 
Yup, Samclem. Your right. Those folks not receiving Medicaid make entirely too much money>

Medicaid Eligibility and Income Limits

69
rate or flag this pageTweet thisBy radix09
One of the most frequent questions about Medicaid eligibility pertains to individual income limits. Every state has a slightly different amount for individuals and couples, but there are several other factors such as the total number of dependents, resources, medical needs, Medicare status, etc. Below we have outlined the some of the criteria used to establish Medicaid income limits. Feel free to continue reading or go directly to your state’s healthcare resources here: Medicaid Insurance - Children's Healthcare Plans - Disabled Healthcare - Prescription Drug Assistance


Resources (assets) can include money in personal bank accounts, CD’s, annuities, bonds, stocks, mineral rights and even loans. Typically the amount of resources one may have access to on a monthly basis cannot exceed $1,100-$2,000 for individuals and $2,000-$3,000 for couples. Please check your State’s specific guidelines.
Medicaid income limits also vary by state. The range for individuals is typically $600-$800 and $1,000-$1,350 for couples. Some states use a formula based on the individual’s federal SSI benefit level. In these instances, the eligibility limits are usually three times the SSI benefit. This amount is adjusted downward per your state’s guidelines for each dependant you provide for.


#2 The Constitution


Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution refers to the “general welfare” thus: “The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .”

Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.
 
Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.
I won't call you stupid. I will say that the Constitution goes on for many pages about the responsibilities of the various branches of government. The provision of health care by the government (Medicare, federal funds for Medicaid, federal funds for CHIP) now consumes 21% of total federal spending. That's more than a footnote and perhaps deserves a tad more definition than the stretching of a two-word clause. Let's, as a nation, have this debate and get it in writing as an amendment. Why not?

A road contributes to the general welfare. Laws that allow efficient trade and enforcement of contracts contribute to the general welfare. Replacement of a person's knee joint contributes to an individual's welfare.
 
#2 The Constitution


Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution refers to the “general welfare” thus: “The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .”

Call me stupid, but I think "general welfare" might just include health care.

A person must have food shelter and clothing to survive. The government must provide those items because of the general welfare clause. A person should also engage in physical activity in order to thrive, so the government must provide gym memberships for the general welfare. People with limited parenting skills, as assessed by a test given when they have a child, should not be allowed to raise children. Anybody not able to pass the test must have their children taken away and raised by the state for the general welfare of the population. These ridiculous examples can go on and on.

Call me stupid but I think "general welfare" might just include everything.
 
The major reason a person wouldn't qualify for Medicaid is because they have too much money. When they have less money, they will be insured by Medicaid.
Thats just the point Sam. You lose your job and your guaranteed group insurance and find yourself uninsurable due to a preexisting condition. you get a serious illness and lose everything you spent a lifetime building up. Preventing that isn't providing for the general welfare? You could cite alternatives - COBRA, state pools, etc., but they just prove the point that government is essential in this arena. Even the Medicare you cite - without government interventions in HC we would be even worse that we are. Left to their own private insurance companies would simply nott be a solution. We all want government to intervene to some point, lets intervene far enough to remove the nightmare scenarios from the system.
 
Thats just the point Sam. You lose your job and your guaranteed group insurance and find yourself uninsurable due to a preexisting condition. you get a serious illness and lose everything you spent a lifetime building up. Preventing that isn't providing for the general welfare? You could cite alternatives - COBRA, state pools, etc., but they just prove the point that government is essential in this arena. Even the Medicare you cite - without government interventions in HC we would be even worse that we are. Left to their own private insurance companies would simply nott be a solution. We all want government to intervene to some point, lets intervene far enough to remove the nightmare scenarios from the system.
I understand the point: A lot of bad things can happen if you don't have medical insurance. The underlying principle I think we're discussing is: Under what conditions do I have the right to forcibly take the property of others, through the government, for my own use? The majority of people have high health care costs at some point, so this isn't an unusual situation, it's one we can all anticipate.
Now, from a practical standpoint (where we are socially and politically in this country) I see the value of limited "takings" of this type--because the SCOTUS doesn't appear willing to stop it, and because the people are of a mood to vote more for themselves at the expense of a smaller minority. So, I suppose the best thing we can do is to field the type of collectivization system that does the least damage to personal freedom while meeting popular demands. Luckily, Europe has travelled down this road, seen the edge of the cliff, and is coming back. With any luck we'll not make the same mistake.
 
I am a physician and the reality is most health care does not fix things that are broken. Ok there are exceptions like broken bones, infections and plugged arteries. What is free is living healthy. So forget about healthcare and don't smoke, control your weight, exercise, drink water and take vitamins and you will be better off then every going to the ER. Many people die in the ER and Hospital. Most of the healthcare dollar is spent on the dieing patient. God heals, the physician and hospital charge for Gods work.
 
I am a physician and the reality is most health care does not fix things that are broken. Ok there are exceptions like broken bones, infections and plugged arteries. What is free is living healthy. So forget about healthcare and don't smoke, control your weight, exercise, drink water and take vitamins and you will be better off then every going to the ER. Many people die in the ER and Hospital. Most of the healthcare dollar is spent on the dieing patient. God heals, the physician and hospital charge for Gods work.

You sound more like a preacher to me. Or if a physician, one practicing wholistic medicine. Just a guess. I'm not casting any judgment here. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on a lot of medical treatment options.

Of course bad things can happen in a hospital and some doctors only make the patient worse by continued treatment. No one would disagree we all would be better off if we all lived a healthy life style and never have to go to the hospital. But, I would guess a lot of lives are saved in the hospital as well.

You say that you are a 54 yr. old physician looking to retire because of changes made in America. Just curious what changes in America you are referring to.
 
Under what conditions do I have the right to forcibly take the property of others, through the government, for my own use?
When it comes to taxes, evidently under any conditions whatsoever. Just because something is not in the Constitution, that doesn't make it unconstitutional.
 
Back
Top Bottom