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Old 04-26-2010, 03:18 PM   #41
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It took me all of 22 minutes to look up the truth and transcribe it here. You'd think a Senator with a staff and these various news organizations could have done the same.
If they wanted the same answer you derived, they could have interpreted the information the way you did.

As a taxpayer, I won't be "paid back" until the government gets paid for all the GM equity we hold.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:21 PM   #42
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But unlike in other reorganizations, its not the sharehlders and bondholders taking it in the shorts, its the taxpayers. As someone who is not in favor of bailouts in general much less to corporations who make poor business decisions for decades, I want to know when we the taxpayer will be paid back. This is NOT the straightforward bankruptcy and reorganization that most corporations got through.......that ended when many billions of taxpayer dollars got involved.........

How are taxpayer bailouts the same as traditional company bankruptcies?
I guess I should just accept the idea that facts have little purchase with you.

But shareholders were wiped out. Bondholders took extreme haircuts. GM went through bankruptcy. The US government is getting everything it is entitled to.

Sorry, but its true.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:29 PM   #43
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As a taxpayer, I won't be "paid back" until the government gets paid for all the GM equity we hold.
What does that even mean? How do you get paid back for the equity you hold? It doesn't have a redemption value. You own a certain number of shares. It is worth what it is worth. And the government will realize every dime of that value in due course.

I think I understand what you all mean . . . "I want 100 cents on the dollar". But that isn't what the plan of reorganization calls for. You got equity. And its worth whatever it is worth. You're not entitled to a penny more.

Do any of you see the irony that the same people who were complaining (erroneously in my view) that the government was undermining creditors rights in the bankruptcy process now think the government should undermine creditor rights by taking more than what the bankruptcy process yielded. Probably not.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:38 PM   #44
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I guess I should just accept the idea that facts have little purchase with you.

But shareholders were wiped out. Bondholders took extreme haircuts. GM went through bankruptcy. The US government is getting everything it is entitled to.
If facts are important, lets use complete facts.
Did all bondholders take the same "extreme haircuts?" No. All of us who were "regular" bondholders got less equity than the union retirement accounts got, despite the fact that the regular bondholders were owed more. This deal courtesy of . . .well, we all know how that happened.

From the Houston Chronicle:
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A study late last year by the conservative-leaning National Taxpayers Union estimated that the GM bailout will cost $12,200 per car, assuming GM meets its sales projections. Include Chrysler, and government support for the auto industry comes to $800 per taxpaying family, the study found.
Those numbers don't include other government programs that benefited the automakers, such as last year's “Cash for Clunkers.”
Against that backdrop, in saunters Whitacre, bragging about paying back loans that amount to a sliver of the money GM still owes us. I hope he's right that it's the first step — a baby step, really — in a GM turnaround.
But paid in full? Not even close.
GM leaders should spare us the carefully worded PR bluster. While technically accurate, I'd rather that they not buy more ads of this type with my tax money and instead work on making and selling good cars--and on paying back what they really owe. Their cockiness is inappropriate and certainly unbecoming.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:48 PM   #45
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If facts are important, lets use complete facts.
I'm not going to rehash all of that because we've been through it. The only question I'll ask is this . . . what in God's green earth does the relative payouts among two separate creditor classes who are not under discussion in this thread have anything to do with whether GM repaid its government loan?

The answer is obviously nothing.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:54 PM   #46
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While technically accurate,

Thank you! That's all I'm saying.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:55 PM   #47
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This thread has now run its course folks.

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