Canadian Premier Will Have Heart Surgery in the US

[SarahW]

Makes you go "hmmmm." N.L. Premier Williams set to have heart surgery in U.S.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Before jumping to a conclusion about the symbolism of all this, my understanding is that if it is a necessary, complex procedure unavailable in Canada his Canadian health care plan will pay for it. Such procedures exist, and even for US citizens, it may rarely be advisable to seek super-subspecialized procedures in Europe or elsewhere.

The article was too vague for me to read between the lines.

 

[ziggy29]

I agree with Rich. There could be a number of reasons why he's not having it done in Canada. It's a vast country with only a little more than 10% of the U.S. population, so it may not have all the super-specialty medical facilities that are found in the States. And when that is the case it might be more cost-effective for the Canadian plan to just pay for the procedure in the U.S. than to build a new facility in Canada which might be very expensive and underutilized.

Having said that, it is certainly true that those with the money and clout to do it can "jump the queue" for a procedure by doing it in the U.S. on a cash basis. But that's not necessarily what's going on here, even though it makes a good talking point for those against universal and/or nationalized health care.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Regardless of the specifics.

It's a big thumbs down for a canadian style health system.

When was the last time we had a noted American in Canada for anything ?

 

[Peter]

When was the last time we had a noted American in Canada for anything ?

When was the last time a Canadian was refused treatment because he was 'uninsured'?

Peter

 

[bruce1]

Not having the specific details either but there was a report on the radio this morning that the surgery he required was not available in Canada. Ontario Station

 

[Westernskies]

Not having the specific details either but there was a report on the radio this morning that the surgery he required was not available in Canada.

..Why not?

 

[Bestwifeever]

Perhaps if the US had the same health care system as Canada, the procedure would not be available in the US either?

 

[youbet]

Perhaps if the US had the same health care system as Canada, the procedure would not be available in the US either?

Ding! Ding! Ding!

There are pros and cons to all situations and clearly there are many pros to the Canadian health care arrangement. But having the latest, state of the art procedures as readily available as in the USA may not be one of them. At least not in this case.

As we all form our opinions and communicate them to our political representatives as to what a new "reformed" USA health care system should look like, we may have to come to grips with the fact that we can't afford everything. Coverage for all citizens and reach-out development of procedures and drugs may not fit on the same plate. There may be some compromises which result in a "better" system but which rearrange the pros and the cons.

Unless there is a dramatic predicted difference in outcomes, the Premier should stay home and lead by example and avoid making a tacit statement like this.

 

[FIRE'd@51]

Not having the specific details either but there was a report on the radio this morning that the surgery he required was not available in Canada. Ontario Station

The article doesn't say what procedure he will undergo, although one of the linked articles mentions that surgery for a certain type of aortic aneurysm is not available in Canada.

"Dr. Feindel said he is aware of only a single non-experimental heart operation not available in Canada: one to repair a rare aneurysm in the part of the aorta descending through the chest."

Perhaps this is the treatment he requires.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

..Why not?

Why does virtually every large American corporation outsource when the necessary services are available cheaper and better elsewhere? Good business.

Maintaining obscenely expensive resources for rare use only? Not so much.

Iin this case, assuming the facts bare this out, kudos to the Canadian system if it covers him for services which are only available outside the country despite higher costs.

 

[youbet]

Why does virtually every large American corporation outsource when the necessary services are available cheaper and better elsewhere? Good business.

Maintaining obscenely expensive resources for rare use only? Not so much.

Iin this case, assuming the facts bare this out, kudos to the Canadian system if it covers him for services which are only available outside the country despite higher costs.

If the USA changes its system and focuses more on coverage for all at the expense of having less development of cutting edge procedures and drugs, it will have an interesting impact on systems like Canada's.

I hope that if the Canadian system is footing the bill for the Premier, they pay full cost + profit and that providing him services doesn't reduce by a penny the resources available for everyday American citizens.

 

[unclemick]

Regardless of the specifics.

It's a big thumbs down for a canadian style health system.

When was the last time we had a noted American in Canada for anything ?

I have an American passport and the internet to query overseas rates vs my great American medical system.

Don't ask - I still can't hit those stupid(smart?) squirrels with my plastic BB's.

heh heh heh - plus knock on wood I don't have any 'specialized' conditions - to my knowledge. .

Ala the great tourist traps - it seems there a lot(and more coming) 'we can do the good stuff cheaper' places being touted around the world. Growth industry??

 

[Westernskies]

Why does virtually every large American corporation outsource when the necessary services are available cheaper and better elsewhere? Good business.

Maintaining obscenely expensive resources for rare use only? Not so much.

In this case, assuming the facts bare this out, kudos to the Canadian system if it covers him for services which are only available outside the country despite higher costs.

So, are you advocating that we subsidize the rest of the world on the cost of research and developing these types of procedures? Or do we require them to make a catch-up contribution when they need services they have chosen are not cost-effective to develop? Canada is not a third-world country, albeit one with socialized medicine- which promulgates outcomes like this.

Outsourcing telephone support for computer printers to India because it is cheaper isn't the same as making the same decisions about the health and welfare of your citizenry, for whom you have agreed to ptovide cradle-to-grave socialized medicine.

If we do enact some sort of health care reform, would you advocate the Canadian approach for you and your family?- only cover routine procedures and be expected to go outside the country for specialized procedures? Makes sense, eh?- lung transplants are on sale next week in India! Brazil is having a 2:1 special on angioplasty, and the Walmart in Tijuana is offering free H1N1 flu shots with every purchase over $50... throw in free airfare, and it's all good.

I wonder what chance the average Canadian would have of getting the procedure the PM is getting... winning their lottery could be a more realistic option.

This speaks volumes about their health care system, annd couldn't come at a better time. That being said, I hope that the PM's procedure goes well.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

So, are you advocating that we subsidize the rest of the world on the cost of research and developing these types of procedures? Or do we require them to make a catch-up contribution when they need services they have chosen are not cost-effective to develop?

Are you mad at Canada for showing a hint of savvy by exporting tiny amounts of esoteric care when it makes sense to do so within their national health care system? Do you propose turning them away because we can't "subsidze" the world (they do pay full fare, AFAIK)?

And, yes, I would be content to have me and my family under the Canadian system.

I like the system here, too, because I am reasonably rich, employed, and healthy. For now.

 

[Calgary_Girl]

According to this article, the Premier could have had the surgery done somewhere else in Canada if it wasn't available in Nfld:

Williams could have had surgery in Canada, cardiac experts say - The Globe and Mail

 

[samclem]

Let me see if I understand how this works:
- It is legal for this Canadian to come to the US and pay for this procedure.
- It is illegal for this Canadian to go elsewhere in Canada and pay for this procedure.

Questions:
- Would it be legal for a US citizen to travel to Canada and get this procedure?
- If a Canadian doctor wanted to treat the US citizen immediately, would that be allowed, or would all Canadians waiting for treatment under the national health insurance plan have to be treated first?

 

[Nords]

Why does virtually every large American corporation outsource when the necessary services are available cheaper and better elsewhere? Good business.
Maintaining obscenely expensive resources for rare use only? Not so much.
Iin this case, assuming the facts bare this out, kudos to the Canadian system if it covers him for services which are only available outside the country despite higher costs.

"Congratulations, Premier, we can't get this done for you here, but we outsourced an extraordinarily low bid from our southern cousins. While you're laying there on the table, think of all the money we're saving!"

I hope that if the Canadian system is footing the bill for the Premier, they pay full cost + profit and that providing him services doesn't reduce by a penny the resources available for everyday American citizens.

I hope that this operation goes so well that all the media lose interest and wander off to other important subjects like the Super Bowl.

But if this operation doesn't go well, then who sues whom where for malpractice? Or did the Premier have to waive his litigation rights to cross the border?

 

[Westernskies]

Are you mad at Canada for showing a hint of savvy by exporting tiny amounts of esoteric care when it makes sense to do so within their national health care system? Do you propose turning them away because we can't "subsidze" the world (they do pay full fare, AFAIK)?

And, yes, I would be content to have me and my family under the Canadian system.

I like the system here, too, because I am reasonably rich, employed, and healthy. For now.

No, I'm not mad at Canada for expecting other countries to research and develop advanced medical procedures, so they can keep their costs low by exporting problem patients. It's just another example of other countries expecting the US to pick up the tab for programs they can't provide themselves, whether it is beans, bullets, or advanced medicine.....in essence, de-facto foreign aid. (unless "full fare" include a full pro-rata assessment for the decades of research and development, clinical trials, liability insurance, clinical after-care, etc, etc. that went into perfecting this procedure?)

It just seems ironic that the Premier of the country whose socialist health care plan has been repeatedly shoved in our faces as a shining model of "what works" can't get the care he needs under their program. While expensive, at least our system encourages advances in medicine, rather than discouraging them because they are, well esoteric.

And Nords does bring up a valid point about liability...No good deed ever goes unpunished.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Maybe he just wanted a real doctor?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

No, I'm not mad at Canada for expecting other countries to research and develop advanced medical procedures, so they can keep their costs low by exporting problem patients.

Did you really just write that Canada expects other countries to do advanced stuff so they (Canadians) can save money by exporting problem patients?

By the way, there were Banting and Best who basically discovered insulin. And McMaster University in Hamilton where evidence-based medicine was formalized, defined and brought to the rest of the world; and David Hubel, Nobel laureate for discoveries in vision and the brain. And a whole bunch more. Not bad for a country of 33mm.

Like the USA, Canada has a proud research legacy. Sorry.

Look, it is natural for anyone to judge a system for how it works for them as individuals, usually directly related to their wallet. But I have seen the systems both as an individual (it has worked well for me, albeit at great cost, currently about $16k per year) as well as a health worker.

Not a week goes by where someone I deal with didn't have their entire world profoundly shaken by sudden cancer, heart attack, stroke etc. which caused them to lose their job, insurance, huge chunks of their retirement savings, homes and more because they could not access or afford health insurance. Some of them are slackers, addicts, and the like, but most are not -- they are just out of luck, out of money and, in some cases, out of time. You just can't judge a system without looking beyond your own personal experience with it.

I believe in universal access to insurance, stopping pre-existing condition exclusions, and the untying of insurance from employment, all backed up by a federal safety net for those unable to pay due to impairment. As for the truly defiant bums, we're paying for them now anyway so we might as well cover them, too, with at least a hope of reforming one or two. Oh -- and a "public option" to keep the insurance companies honest would be nice, but I can live without it.

 

[Westernskies]

RiT,
I wasn't trying to beliitle Canada's medical contributions at all,, but rather to point out a major flaw in their system. I lived in Spokane for many years, you would be shocked at how many Canadians came across the border for specialized procedures because they either could not wait or could not get the treatment they needed under their socialiized medical plan. Health care is the largest employer in Spokane, most of it driven by Canadians frustrated with a system that covers everyone and no one... And their Premier has to come here for an advanced procedure because their system either can't or won't provide for his treatment locally? As the OP said, makes you go hmmmm-right in the middle of the largest health care [-]debacle[/-] debate in the history of this country.

I don't have the background in medicine that you have, but I do pay a lot of my hard-earned money in taxes and health insurance premiums that support a system that works so welll that people who get free health care at home choose to come here instead. 'nuf said.

Agree to disagree on this one?

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Agree to disagree on this one?

Of course. And I agree -- both systems have major challenges.

Here's to our continiued good health .

 

[M Paquette]

Not just Canada...

It would appear that there are some medical care innovators among US insurance companies, too...

Insurers aim to save from overseas medical tourism - USATODAY.com

Until recently, most Americans traveling abroad for cheaper non-emergency medical care were either uninsured or wealthy. But the profile of medical tourists is changing. Now, they are more likely to be people covered by private insurers, which are looking to keep costs from spiraling out of control.

The four largest commercial U.S. health insurers — with enrollments totaling nearly 100 million people — have either launched pilot programs offering overseas travel or explored it. Several smaller insurers and brokers also have introduced travel options for hundreds of employers around the country.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Rich in Tampa, that was a great post. Especially coming from someone in the business of health care (literally). My take on "universal health care is this" and you mentioned it Rich. The gvmnt could take 1/10 of the cost it's anticipating and just cover everyone that doesn't have healthcare. How you do this without pulling more and more people into that loop is beyond me. We as a country cannot deny them care. However, if I'm a billionair I ought to be able to buy the best care possible. That's the American way. Same as for the house you choose to live in or the car you drive. If you can afford an mulitmillion dollar home, go for it. Rolles Royce? You earned it. Doesn't mean everyone has the same right.