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Old 08-09-2010, 09:07 AM   #41
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"Socially important work" should pay less in a "free" job market because people want to do it and would accept less money for doing it *because* of the satisfaction they derive from "doing good works."

Going back to what I said before, this feeling adds to the desire to teach among many people and increases the supply of people willing to do it for less money.

If Job A and Job B have similar duties and qualification requirements but Job A is a corporate back-office job while Job B makes people feel like they are doing rewarding, "socially important" work -- which job do you think most people would prefer to do, all else being equal? And wouldn't that mean Job B *should* be paying less as the supply of people who want to do it is greater than the supply of people wanting to do Job A?
agree. and that's part of the reason why i hope teaching is a part of my ESR plans.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:07 AM   #42
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every teacher i have met feels they are underpaid. they hide behind this veil of doing some "great" and "socially important work." a good teacher is maybe 20% of a kid's education (imho). the rest comes from the home.
My dad says it best: "Underpaid for 30 years, overpaid for the rest of your life"..............
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:10 AM   #43
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"Socially important work" should pay less in a "free" job market because people want to do it and would accept less money for doing it *because* of the satisfaction they derive from "doing good works."?
And the reverse is why crime does pay (at least in money)--because it has to. Being a crook isn't very socially rewarding (in most circles) so people demand more $$ to engage in it. Plus, the risk of getting shot, put in jail, etc all drive up the price for "crook labor."
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:11 AM   #44
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It's a rhombus, and the other vertex are the child's peers. As the child gets older, the peers have a greater and greater impact (in general).
At which point, it becomes an arbitrary quadrilateral.
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Old 08-09-2010, 09:44 AM   #45
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But I still believe that my DW is underpaid. ... In MY OPINION she's underpaid and that's not likely to change. ... But that's just my opinion so feel free to differ.
Well of course you are entitled to your opinion, and it's pointless for me or anyone to 'argue' or 'debate' your opinion or feeling.

But I will add that the times I felt I was underpaid, I started brushing up my resume', started evaluating how I could advance my pay in my present situation, considered going back to school, etc. If one isn't actually acting on it, it doesn't strike me that the 'feeling' is very strong, or well supported. In my opinion, it sounds more like 'whining' (sorry if that comes across as snarky, it is not meant that way it is meant to be descriptive, it captures how I feel. And it seems like 'fair game', since it is in your sig).

Despite your protests that this is just limited to your DW, that is not what you are conveying. Phrases like this infer that you think it is more wide-spread:

On one hand you say...

Quote:
you're responding as if I'm arguing that all teachers are underpaid.... and ...

Most of what I've said here relates to my DW specifically.
But then we have...
Quote:
there are probably other similar teachers out there who I would say are also underpaid.

I believe society places too low a value on the contribution good teachers make.

I believe that my DW and many other highly qualified and motivated teachers are underpaid in such a system

But she's just one of many good teachers who do this work and do it well. Underpaid? ... Yeah, I think so.
So yes, I get the impression that you think many teachers are underpaid - unless you are also saying that 'good teachers' are a distinct minority?

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Old 08-09-2010, 09:47 AM   #46
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Having thought on it more, I'd put it this way.

Show me someone who does work they feel good about and find extremely fulfilling but also feels underpaid, and I'll show you someone who's probably undervaluing job satisfaction.
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:28 AM   #47
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At which point, it becomes an arbitrary quadrilateral.
Oh, it's arbitrary alright. I'd argue for the "out-of-control, I-can't-believe-this-is-happening, has-she-forgotten-everything-she-ever-knew?" kind of arbitrary.
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:50 AM   #48
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Despite your protests that this is just limited to your DW, that is not what you are conveying. Phrases like this infer that you think it is more wide-spread:

On one hand you say...



But then we have...


So yes, I get the impression that you think many teachers are underpaid - unless you are also saying that 'good teachers' are a distinct minority?

-ERD50
I'm not sure how many "good teachers" there are that would fit my description as underpaid but I'm guessing, based on personal experience alone, that, yes, the really good ones would be in the minority.

I understand all the arguments you're making about relative value and intangibles but I still think society's priorities are out of whack in some areas. I know this will elicit a groan but take professional baseball players for example. Society and the market for athletics/entertainment obviously place a very high value on their skills and the entertainment value derived from watching them play but I think many are overpaid. I'd like to see professional athletes paid somewhat less and good teachers paid somewhat more. Likely to happen anytime soon? Not hardly because that's just my opinion and the market as a whole obviously sees it differently.

If that comes across as whiny well so be it, I'm not perfect.
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:13 PM   #49
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... I still think society's priorities are out of whack in some areas. I know this will elicit a groan but take professional baseball players for example. ...
No groan from me, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

What I don't agree with however, is that there is any system that I would prefer to see over the free market to set these salaries. You and I may agree that some salary seems out of whack - but somebody else would feel the opposite. So who gets to decide? Do you want someone else arbitrarily deciding your salary?

Hey, I know, we could all get a vote! And since we are talking about money here, we could each buy a vote for $1, and we can buy as many votes as we choose. That should work pretty well. ... Wait a minute - isn't that how the free market works?

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Old 08-10-2010, 09:57 AM   #50
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All I relate is what I heard from my teacher parents and what I observed during their 30+ years of teaching. I think MOST teachers KNOW they are not going to be paid as much as those in the private sector. They WILLINGLY go into the profession to "make a difference"..........at least that's what my parents did. My dad took a pay cut from being the chief pharmacist at the largest nursing home facility in our area to start teaching. Teaching is all my mom ever did.

What I know they liked:

Making a difference
Job security
Summers off
Great healthcare for the family
Retirement security (pension)

What they did not like:

Union meetings
Administration red tape and badgering
Being told how to teach by the DPI
Aloof parents
Apathetic kids

My dad retired 10 years ago, his last year's gross pay was $68,000. He had a master's degree in cognitive learning, and 30 years expeience. Shortly after retirement,
he was offered a job as consultant for Walgreens for $150 an hour plus expenses paid. He turned it down. He is not sorry he was a teacher..........
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:17 AM   #51
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I understand what you're saying and largely agree. Most of what I've said here relates to my DW specifically. I think she's underpaid because I believe society places too low a value on the contribution good teachers make. And, yes, she could go elsewhere and make more but, along the lines of what you've said, she's good at what she does, she enjoys it and she finds it rewarding.

One of the problems with the statement that 'she could go elsewhere and make more'... is that can be said of a lot of people... but that does not change the fact that they have accepted their salary and benefits as good enough for them...

As an example... I was in Big 8 accounting, which is now Big 4... I am good enough to have become a partner... but the cost of getting there to ME was to great... so I make a lot less money where I am... but I am happier... am I underpaid No, not for the job I do... could I get paid more if I did X or Y... yes.. is it worth it NO...

I also think I could have made a good lawyer.... and made even more money... but chose not to... you wife made a choice based on all costs and rewards and decided to be a teacher at the salary given... so, she is not underpaid... can she make more... sure... but that is a different job with different costs and rewards... so you can not compare just the salary part...

Just my opinion....
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:50 AM   #52
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what i would like to know if the attrition rate of teachers by gender for the first 5 years. all but one teacher that i have personally known (not the ones that were my teachers) bailed before 3 years. finance dude's pops at $68k/yr doesn't sound too shabby. but, i observed, especially where i lived last in utah, teaching is something women do until they find a man. at least that is what i have observed. may be some utah cultural effects in there as well. it would just be interesting to know the attrition stats.

the one who hasn't bailed is my BIL, who makes $38k/yr, been teaching for like 5 years, dept head, wrestling coach and asst football coach.
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Old 08-11-2010, 11:09 AM   #53
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what i would like to know if the attrition rate of teachers by gender for the first 5 years. all but one teacher that i have personally known (not the ones that were my teachers) bailed before 3 years. finance dude's pops at $68k/yr doesn't sound too shabby. but, i observed, especially where i lived last in utah, teaching is something women do until they find a man. at least that is what i have observed. may be some utah cultural effects in there as well. it would just be interesting to know the attrition stats.

the one who hasn't bailed is my BIL, who makes $38k/yr, been teaching for like 5 years, dept head, wrestling coach and asst football coach.
Well, that was the end of a 35 year career, with a master's degree in education...........

Once teachers make it 10 years or so, they "stay in" for the pension and healthcare benies, even though a lot of them get "burned out" at the end. It's sad, but my parents know a LOT of teachers just going through the motions until they can retire and get the pension............
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Old 08-11-2010, 11:42 AM   #54
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Well, that was the end of a 35 year career, with a master's degree in education...........

Once teachers make it 10 years or so, they "stay in" for the pension and healthcare benies, even though a lot of them get "burned out" at the end. It's sad, but my parents know a LOT of teachers just going through the motions until they can retire and get the pension............
Some of that has to do with teaching being part acting. As DW tells me, each class is a new performance where you have to teach the same material to a new group. Even though you've been teaching it for years and could do it in your sleep, as soon as that bell rings you are "on", as in prepared, motivated, excited about and able to explain the material to all students in the class and do it in a way that engages them and keeps their interest. And you have to give a great performance even if you are bored, or tired or have a headache. She loves it but says it is draining. She was thrilled to be given AP Calculus after having taught only Algebra II for many years.
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