Federal Barry Bonds Trial

[cb7010]

Let's see, 9 years of investigations and hearings; and not sure exactly how much tax money we are spending to attempt to put a baseball player in jail because he may have lied about taking performance enhancing substances.

Who thinks this is a good use of our tax money? And, if you do, I'd love to hear why? I think in light of our overall fiscal problems, it's a little embarassing.

[RetiredGypsy]

I have Pumping Iron, a movie about Arnold's heyday of bodybuilding. Where he openly admits using steroids (they all did, and still do), and is seen enjoying his victory with a joint. On video. Forever and forever as actual irrefutable (and openly admitted by the man himself) evidence. The governor.

Who cares what someone does to their own body? This country sure takes an amazingly hypocritical stance on the issue. Let the man go free. And if there was a clause in his contract about not using steroids while playing a professional sport, take him to court over that in the appropriate court.

Ridiculous.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy I have Pumping Iron, a movie about Arnold's heyday of bodybuilding. Where he openly admits using steroids (they all did, and still do), and is seen enjoying his victory with a joint. On video. Forever and forever as actual irrefutable (and openly admitted by the man himself) evidence. The governor. Who cares what someone does to their own body? This country sure takes an amazingly hypocritical stance on the issue. Let the man go free. And if there was a clause in his contract about not using steroids while playing a professional sport, take him to court over that in the appropriate court. Ridiculous.

He is not on trial for taking steroids.... he is on trial for lying about it under oath... to me a much more serious charge...

Just like any of the people who go on trial for lying.... they deserve what they get... if you are under oath, or talking to law enforcement, either shut your mouth or tell the truth... then no problem...


But to the original question.... no, I do not think the beginning premise was a good use of taxpayer money.... however, like Martha Stewart, you need to put away a few liars to try to get most people to tell the truth....

[RetiredGypsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud He is not on trial for taking steroids.... he is on trial for lying about it under oath... to me a much more serious charge...

Ah. And had he told the truth, he would have received no punishment except by whatever the MLB decided?

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cb7010 Who thinks this is a good use of our tax money? And, if you do, I'd love to hear why? I think in light of our overall fiscal problems, it's a little embarassing.

I think it's a good idea to publicize that liars are dragged through years of suffering and litigation.

I think it's a good idea to discourage the hassle of steroids use.

I think in the long run, by discouraging liars and steroid users, the governments will avoid the expense of corporate deceipt, fraud, and steroid-related healthcare expenses.

I'm not suggesting that justice in necessarily being accomplished here, let alone in a cost-effective manner. But ignoring it is likely to be even more expensive.

[RetiredGypsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I think it's a good idea to publicize that liars are dragged through years of suffering and litigation.

Would he have been punished by law (probation, fines, jail time, forced to kiss a puppy, whatever) if he had admitted steroid use?

If so, then is lying a bad thing? If yes, what's the upper limit? Toss Barry Bonds in jail, but not Mr. Leibowitz who lied under oath to the Nazis about being Jewish?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I think it's a good idea to discourage the hassle of steroids use.

Punishing someone over a "hassle" needs a better reason and definition of "hassle".

Because it seems like it's a hassle caring for all the surfers who've been munched on by sharks or swept out to sea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords I think in the long run, by discouraging liars and steroid users, the governments will avoid the expense of corporate deceipt, fraud, and steroid-related healthcare expenses.

Or: if it's in your contract not to do steroids, don't do steroids. If it's not in your contract one way or another, you got off lucky, and the situation will be remedied. Like various fixes have been implemented in every sport ever for anyone trying to sneak something by.

And we're back to controlling people for related healthcare expenses. Do surfers have a higher risk of skin cancer? Should I stop riding my motorcycle because a larger percentage of motorcyclists have accidents on the road every year compared to the total number of drivers?

[HFWR]

Let's see, an aging player gets bigger, stronger, and improves late in the season. Couldn't possibly be steroids...

As for whether he should be prosecuted, yeah, lying to a grand jury isn't too smart. Why couldn't he have hit home runs the way the legends, like Ruth, Mantle, etc. did; i.e. hungover from partying all night...

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy Ah. And had he told the truth, he would have received no punishment except by whatever the MLB decided?

Read my previous post.... he had the option of not saying anything...


I really don't know what punishment he might have faced if he admitted using steroids... maybe you do

[73ss454]

Martha Stewart thought it would be a cake walk also.

[RetiredGypsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I really don't know what punishment he might have faced if he admitted using steroids... maybe you do

It's listed as a Schedule III drug by the DEA, but as to the penalties of use, I have no idea.

And even if he said nothing, it's lying by omission. So it's still the same argument.

That the default condition seems to be he's wrong for lying rather than it's wrong that it's a law against doing to his own body as he pleases in the first place baffles me.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy And we're back to controlling people for related healthcare expenses. Do surfers have a higher risk of skin cancer? Should I stop riding my motorcycle because a larger percentage of motorcyclists have accidents on the road every year compared to the total number of drivers?

Well, maybe that's where you are, but I don't have as much invested in this discussion as you seem to be feeling. I don't have more precision to contribute to my original first-approximation answer, and I think it's accurate enough.

I'll let you & Cb have at it without me.

How to Disagree

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy It's listed as a Schedule III drug by the DEA, but as to the penalties of use, I have no idea. And even if he said nothing, it's lying by omission. So it's still the same argument. That the default condition seems to be he's wrong for lying rather than it's wrong that it's a law against doing to his own body as he pleases in the first place baffles me.

No... if he said nothing it is NOT lying by omission.... it is nothing... you can take the 5th... prosecution for perjury has to be a specific thing that was told falsly, not keeping quiet...

I did look at it a bit and could not find any penalty for taking the stuff... so lying was to protect his standing with MLB and look good to the fans...



I really do not care what he put in his body... but there is an effect (it seems) with high school kids who look at him doing it and want to do it also ( I read an article on that)... but to me that is them being stupid also...

SOOOO, telling the truth it seems would only have gotten him in trouble with MLB and his fans... not saying anything would probably have gotten him in some trouble with MLB (and maybe not) and some fans.... lying got him in legal trouble AND in trouble with MLB and some fans.... what is the worst in these options....

[cb7010]

First, I am not so sure our federal government should be having hearings on steroids in baseball. This costs us money. Second, lying to a grand jury is bad! And Mr. Bonds may just find that out if he is found guilty.

My concern here is really that with all of the other strife going on in our country and the world, we are actually spending time and money on this. They better convict him on the drug charge as well because I really don't see how you can get convicted for lying about a crime you didn't commit?? Probably not worth any of our time worrying about this; but, if you remember, they paraded a variety of other baseball players to DC during their hearings. I am just sick of the government wasting our money on these trivial things that are nowhere close to what they should be spending their time on.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cb7010 First, I am not so sure our federal government should be having hearings on steroids in baseball. This costs us money. Second, lying to a grand jury is bad! And Mr. Bonds may just find that out if he is found guilty. My concern here is really that with all of the other strife going on in our country and the world, we are actually spending time and money on this. They better convict him on the drug charge as well because I really don't see how you can get convicted for lying about a crime you didn't commit?? Probably not worth any of our time worrying about this; but, if you remember, they paraded a variety of other baseball players to DC during their hearings. I am just sick of the government wasting our money on these trivial things that are nowhere close to what they should be spending their time on.

A bad argument IMO...

Why prosecute the shoplifter It seems a waste of our money on trivial things...

Why prosecute identity theft It also seems a waste of our money on trivial things...

Why prosecute any perjury case It also seems to be a waste of our time and money... heck, we all know the witness we do not believe is lying...


Well, we do prosecute because we want people on the fence of doing these things to think about it a bit and maybe not do them... most people are pretty honest and will not lie under oath.... but there seems to be a few who have no problem... and they should be prosecuted if there is enough evidence that they did lie...



Now, you probably are right (and I said this before) that the whole thing stinks of wasted taxpayer money (the congress hearings etc. etc.).... but if you are in a grand jury and they ask questions on a criminal case (it seems from some posts that is what is being prosecuted).... well, he took his chance and lost....

[chinaco]

I guess the govt doesn't have enough real problems to deal with (in govt) so they need to fix the problems with professional athletes!

[cb7010]

Shoplifting and identity theft involve infringing on somebody else's property and I think we would all agree qualify as crimes. Putting muscle enhancing substances into your own body is not quite the same if you ask me.

I guess you are also suggesting we should have Senate hearings on various shoplifting incidents? Prosecuting a crime is fine, but I just think this whole steroids thing got out of hand.

[easysurfer]

From a baseball standpoint, sad thing is he didn't need to get juiced up to have a hall of fame career. Similar to Rodgers Clemens. Guess competition and bragging rights will do that to you.

[RetiredGypsy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud No... if he said nothing it is NOT lying by omission.... it is nothing... you can take the 5th... prosecution for perjury has to be a specific thing that was told falsly, not keeping quiet...

You're right, but by god, I don't know what I'd do with myself if I couldn't fill my daily quota of dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud I did look at it a bit and could not find any penalty for taking the stuff... so lying was to protect his standing with MLB and look good to the fans...

One site I found said minimum federal penalty is up to a year in jail and $1,000 minimum fine for possession. I have no idea if that's true or not, I can't seem to find anything on the DEA site itself.

If that's true, I still maintain he's not guilty of anything, whether he said yes, no, maybe or started doing the cancan and kicked the judge with a wayward heel.

[Nodak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud He is not on trial for taking steroids.... he is on trial for lying about it under oath... to me a much more serious charge... Just like any of the people who go on trial for lying.... they deserve what they get... if you are under oath, or talking to law enforcement, either shut your mouth or tell the truth... then no problem... But to the original question.... no, I do not think the beginning premise was a good use of taxpayer money.... however, like Martha Stewart, you need to put away a few liars to try to get most people to tell the truth....

The congress critters lie to us constantly. When do we get to threaten them with a jail term?

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cb7010 Shoplifting and identity theft involve infringing on somebody else's property and I think we would all agree qualify as crimes. Putting muscle enhancing substances into your own body is not quite the same if you ask me. I guess you are also suggesting we should have Senate hearings on various shoplifting incidents? Prosecuting a crime is fine, but I just think this whole steroids thing got out of hand.

It's a good thing that he didn't lie to a grand jury about shoplifting steroids....