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Old 10-10-2010, 10:37 AM   #21
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There was a high profile case reported on CNN (Chase Bank have since apologized)

Bank breaks into home - over mortgage payments
Alan, here's the difference between this article and what I was asking M. Paquette about:

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Originally Posted by M Paquette View Post
There have been a few unfortunate outcomes from banks and their notaries 'expediting the process', where a homeowner who had paid off a loan and was in posession of the deed and paid mortgage documents found the sheriff at the door.
Quote:
Chetry: You say that you were about three to four months behind on your mortgage payments but you'd been working diligently with the bank to get a mortgage modification.

Jacobini:
Absolutely.
In 12 years there has been one time I was late (by about a week because I wasn't paying attention) on a mortgage payment. What "hits close to home" for me is the offhanded quote about a homeowner in posession of the deed.


In 2.5 years I plan to pay off my mortgage about 2 years early. I've been a little concerned about how best to go about it. Certified check? Call ahead and see if I can pay it off in person? (It's a national outfit.) I'm aware that mistakes happen.


Regarding the OP, I have mixed emotions. The banks are at fault for making historically risky loans. So far I'm not seeing how they've paid for that crime on society. Mortgagees are at fault for, well, LBYM (living beyond your means). The so-called regulators are at fault for not doing their job. But then again, nobody can be blamed for doing "what everybody else is doing". In the meantime the only ones who will pay seem to be the ones who pay their taxes and bills.


Simplistic? Probably. Do I have an alternative? I didn't back when we bailed out the banks, and I don't have one now to bail out the mortgagees. So I guess it's a national foreclosure moratorium for now.
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dfdski View Post
Alan, here's the difference between this article and what I was asking M. Paquette about:



In 12 years there has been one time I was late (by about a week because I wasn't paying attention) on a mortgage payment. What "hits close to home" for me is the offhanded quote about a homeowner in posession of the deed.


In 2.5 years I plan to pay off my mortgage about 2 years early. I've been a little concerned about how best to go about it. Certified check? Call ahead and see if I can pay it off in person? (It's a national outfit.) I'm aware that mistakes happen.


Regarding the OP, I have mixed emotions. The banks are at fault for making historically risky loans. So far I'm not seeing how they've paid for that crime on society. Mortgagees are at fault for, well, LBYM (living beyond your means). The so-called regulators are at fault for not doing their job. But then again, nobody can be blamed for doing "what everybody else is doing". In the meantime the only ones who will pay seem to be the ones who pay their taxes and bills.


Simplistic? Probably. Do I have an alternative? I didn't back when we bailed out the banks, and I don't have one now to bail out the mortgagees. So I guess it's a national foreclosure moratorium for now.
My mistake. I've not heard of anyone in possession of a deed being foreclosed on, although that doesn't been big boo-boo's don't happen.

Last year while living in Baton Rouge, a good friend of ours had an awful experience. She had owned 2 houses in the same sub-division, one which she lived in, and one which was a rental. She sold the rental house several years ago.

One slow day at work she was reading the Baton Rouge Advocate, scanning the page which lists all the folks who owe taxes (they have a name and shame system in place) and she sees her name listed as being delinquent on her property taxes, naming her as the owner of the house she had sold years before. Off she goes to the records office (in Louisiana you never get to physical hold your house deeds) to discover that her lawyers had messed up and transfered the deeds of the wrong house.

I know that was off-topic, but it illustrates that house ownership paperwork screw-ups occur in "normal" times also.
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:20 AM   #23
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I did not look at anything....
So you are admitting to fraud, a felony?

I think that is the issue here. I have little sympathy for deadbeats. But banks MUST follow due process. To not do so and then sign documents confirming that the proper review was carried out and the bank officer had personal knowledge of it, which is required in some places, is perjury and possibly fraud on the part of the bank officer. Clearly it varies by jurisdiction. But the national banks ignored jurisdictional requirements and just followed their own rules. In many cases these rules were contrary to law.
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:24 AM   #24
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Mass evictions? No. Riots and disorder would follow.

My simplistic take:

In life, one chooses to be an ant or a grasshopper. Ants follow the rules, such as paying bills on time, because ants love order. If necessary, ants are willing to cut back and do without; grasshoppers do so only when the things they want simply aren't there. Also, ants don't rebel, because ants love order. So ants will continue to pay their own bills and also help pay for the grasshoppers' mass defaults, caused by the banks' enabling behavior. Thus, an appearance of order and comfort may be preserved for the ants even though deep down, they know they're being had. Large corporations and governments know this, and act accordingly.

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A In the meantime the only ones who will pay seem to be the ones who pay their taxes and bills.
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Old 10-10-2010, 11:30 AM   #25
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I can't see how that would be a just outcome.
Forgiving the loans would not be just. But it might be the legal out come in some cases. As I understand it, in some jurisdictions banks were required to keep physical paperwork documenting loans. That is inefficient so they kept electronic records only in their owns systems. While that made sense to them, it was not legal in some areas because it denied borrowers access to documents they might need to support a claim.

Now the banks are in the position of having to support their claims without documentation. If they cannot produce original documents as required then they may have no claim on the properties.

I don't think it is a sensible or just outcome. But the alternative is to not follow the law that required banks to maintain evidence of claims. That would not be just either.
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:08 PM   #26
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The law is not always just. Mortgage writers are supposed to be know the law. They are at risk for not following the law. What is tragic is that holders of the securitized mortgages will loose too. Look for class actions against the banks and mortgage companies, maybe too the underwriters of the securities.

Could it be that the reason why lenders are hording TARP money is that they were aware of this risk?
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Old 10-10-2010, 01:39 PM   #27
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I understand there is another mouse in this house, the paperwork in the securitization of mortgages is a mess. Title insurers have stopped writing policies on foreclosed properties and, it is rumored, that they are hesitating about writing where any mortgage has been securitized.
Ding, ding, ding: Mortgage Electronic Registration System (MERS). The Washington Post recently did a short article about this little known, but very important company in the mortgage securitization and foreclosure mess with the paperwork. A number of lawsuits raise interesting views on whether lenders and the mortgage industry got way ahead of themselves on electronic transfers of mortgages and liens (without the transfer of title) and a number of local recording offices are also challenging this enterprising privately developed system.
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Old 10-10-2010, 04:53 PM   #28
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Now the banks are in the position of having to support their claims without documentation. If they cannot produce original documents as required then they may have no claim on the properties.
At the same time, the occupants of the home have no claim of ownership either. They hold no deed or title and there is no reason to issue them one.

If the banks failed to follow the requirements of keeping records as mandated by the government, but there is no doubt that they lent and the borrower borrowed, then the banks should be heavily fined for failure to follow procedures. But the borrower should still be required to repay the loan.

However this works out, I hope lenders get tough. They should be strong fidicuaries of the funds (ours) they are loaning out and have stiff requirements. Minimum 20% down, strong income requirements, excellent credit history, etc. No exceptions.
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:17 PM   #29
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I also hope that the courts get tough and look at the mortgage from the beginning. Personally I expect that some were fraudulent at conception which could mean that the mortgage insurance is worth nothing to the lender. In most cases the borrower is underwater on the loan, the bank isn't going to pick that pocket.

Time to sit down with a bag of popcorn and watch the fight.
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:30 PM   #30
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Mass evictions? No. Riots and disorder would follow.
Right now, about 10% of all mortgages are delinquent. About 25% of housing sales nationwide are foreclosures and short sales. Generally speaking, the worst loans and the worst borrowers are being worked through the system at a somewhat steady pace. (Apparently with or without conforming paperwork.) While the housing market isn't robust anywhere in the country, it's approaching steady in many places.

I think an argument can be made that a lengthy nationwide moratorium will create a higher likelihood of unrest and sudden downward pressure on home prices down the road, because of a backlog of foreclosure property that would be released at the end of the moratorium.

BTW, I forgot one disclosure above: I never, ever voted for Phil Gramm.
Phil Gramm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gramm
Subprime mortgage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:12 PM   #31
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At the same time, the occupants of the home have no claim of ownership either. They hold no deed or title and there is no reason to issue them one.

If the banks failed to follow the requirements of keeping records as mandated by the government, but there is no doubt that they lent and the borrower borrowed, then the banks should be heavily fined for failure to follow procedures. But the borrower should still be required to repay the loan.

However this works out, I hope lenders get tough. They should be strong fidicuaries of the funds (ours) they are loaning out and have stiff requirements. Minimum 20% down, strong income requirements, excellent credit history, etc. No exceptions.
This might be an oversimplification of the extent of the problem. The record documentation issue affects many who have obtained "title" from foreclosure sales already completed (including my daughter who obtained one of these foreclosed properties) and title insurance companies (several of whom might not be issuing future policies for properties foreclosed in "nonjudicial" foreclosures).

The major problem isn't between borrower and lender, but how to ensure title passes, once the lender has "foreclosed" a title claim against the borrower and others with subordinate claims against the property. If the lender did not effect a proper foreclosure, then subsequent, purported owners of the property are at risk and clouds on title to the property will exist. If title insurance companies stop insuring foreclosure properties, this could be a major drag on the housing market.
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:19 PM   #32
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At some point, people have to become accountable for their actions.

If the banks are illegally foreclosing, they should be punished per the laws.

If the homeowners have violated the terms of their mortgages, they should face the consequences for their violations.

The government should leave this mess alone, and let nature take it's course. But they feel they need to do something to save face before the elections. If they take measures to support the responsible parties, where will it stop? Why not eliminate responsibility for all debts?
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Old 10-10-2010, 08:48 PM   #33
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At the same time, the occupants of the home have no claim of ownership either. They hold no deed or title and there is no reason to issue them one.
In Hawaii, and perhaps other states, the occupants do hold the deed/title.

Of course the lender also holds a lien, but they don't hold the title/deed. It's not like a car loan where you could drive the assets away overnight and never be seen again.

One blogger on BankRate.com doesn't object to making sure the lenders have their paperwork straight, but he says that any foreclosure conversation in front of a judge should include the question "So, are you paying your mortgage?!?"
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:37 PM   #34
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The law is not always just.
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Old 10-10-2010, 09:51 PM   #35
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TexasProud one of the reports I heard said that bankers were required under penalty of perjury to sign that had reviewed the paperwork before they could start the foreclosure process. It seems me one of the big problems we've had in this financial crisis is too many people are ignoring the the "Under penalty of Perjury" which is typically in big bold print.
I'll certainly sign (or lately click the I accept box) that I've not read thourghly, but the threat of perjury tends to stop me.

It wasn't that long ago we impeached a president for perjury. I'd like to see more people pay attention to it in the future.

There was not such language on the ones that I signed... BUT... I have a problem with that language..... I am NOT a lawyer... so I am not sure that we were doing things legal... that is why we had lawyers looking at the documents.... but since they were not trust officers they could not sign the documents...

SOOO, if this is similar to today's signing... you are in a catch 22 situation....
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:07 PM   #36
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There was a high profile case reported on CNN (Chase Bank have since apologized)

Bank breaks into home - over mortgage payments
Have not read to see if anyone responded....


But, this is not what was said that was happening... it was said that they were foreclosing on houses that were paid off.... she admitted she was behind on her mortgage... I am not agreeing on what happened to her, but it was not someone breaking into a house trying to foreclose on a paid mortgage...

If this is the only one, then I think the banks must be doing some things right... there has been millions of foreclosures... you would think there would be thousands of problems even if they were doing things right...
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:14 PM   #37
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So you are admitting to fraud, a felony?

I think that is the issue here. I have little sympathy for deadbeats. But banks MUST follow due process. To not do so and then sign documents confirming that the proper review was carried out and the bank officer had personal knowledge of it, which is required in some places, is perjury and possibly fraud on the part of the bank officer. Clearly it varies by jurisdiction. But the national banks ignored jurisdictional requirements and just followed their own rules. In many cases these rules were contrary to law.

No.... It was not my job to look at the paperwork... I signed as a trustee for the trust... we hired people who were responsible for doing all the legal work... as I mentioned in a post responding to someone else, I am not a lawyer and as such do not pretend to know all the legal issues...

Also, I did read the docs enough to know that it was a loan for the trust that I had and that it was the property that we wanted... ie, they were the ones not paying... I was being a bit to general on 'not reading anything'...
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:17 PM   #38
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Forgiving the loans would not be just. But it might be the legal out come in some cases. As I understand it, in some jurisdictions banks were required to keep physical paperwork documenting loans. That is inefficient so they kept electronic records only in their owns systems. While that made sense to them, it was not legal in some areas because it denied borrowers access to documents they might need to support a claim.

Now the banks are in the position of having to support their claims without documentation. If they cannot produce original documents as required then they may have no claim on the properties.

I don't think it is a sensible or just outcome. But the alternative is to not follow the law that required banks to maintain evidence of claims. That would not be just either.

When I was dealing with them... we had ALL the paperwork on every loan that the trust owned.... it was stored in a big vault that was fire proof...

Keeping records for 20 to 30 years is part of the process.... if they did not, then they should live with the problems...

BUT, a lot of places also allow anything that is filed in the county records to be legal.... and most have a lien with a mortgage attached... so all you do is have them print you another one and you are good to go....
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:38 PM   #39
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However this works out, I hope lenders get tough. They should be strong fidicuaries of the funds (ours) they are loaning out and have stiff requirements. Minimum 20% down, strong income requirements, excellent credit history, etc. No exceptions.
Oh, you mean be a bank...

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One blogger on BankRate.com doesn't object to making sure the lenders have their paperwork straight, but he says that any foreclosure conversation in front of a judge should include the question "So, are you paying your mortgage?!?"
heh heh...

One would hope that, in all this mess, at least some of the judges are using "judgement".
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Old 10-11-2010, 10:57 AM   #40
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In today's USAtoday
"Fight over who has legal right to foreclose makes mess worse"
Fight over who has legal right to foreclose makes mess worse - USATODAY.com
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