Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-30-2015, 12:39 PM   #201
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Sounds like many would prefer to work, to generate more income. But it's not an option, given high unemployment, brought about by these austerity policies.
Which are the result of . . . profligate spending of borrowed money. Is there an aversion to mentioning the root cause of all this misery?
__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-30-2015, 12:40 PM   #202
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
... They can't simply will big private sector employers to appear out of thin air. ...
True. Big private sector employers need good reasons to set up shop somewhere. Natural resources, good infrastructure, a work force that will work hard and produce quality output for competitive compensation - a few others or combos of the above.

I suspect the work force is a big hold-up. I also suspect they will need to get very hungry before they get motivated.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 12:45 PM   #203
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
...
Sounds like many would prefer to work, to generate more income. But it's not an option, given high unemployment, brought about by these austerity policies.
...
Which are the result of . . . profligate spending of borrowed money. Is there an aversion to mentioning the root cause of all this misery?
Root causes are hard!

There was a lot of 'stuff' leading up to the austerity cuts. Inconvenient?

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 12:52 PM   #204
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I also suspect they will need to get very hungry before they get motivated.

-ERD50
I truly think Greek needs to be much more desperate before they are properly motivated to get out of the situation by themselves. OTOH, they may reach the bottom and never recover. Based on what I saw so far, the latter seems to be the case if EU does not bail them out again.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 12:54 PM   #205
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
JoeWras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Would love to read the FT but it's paywalled.
The article is a good short read that outlines the difficulty of staying or exiting.

To see it, just google: The difficult choices facing the Greeks
__________________
JoeWras is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 12:59 PM   #206
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,190
A Primer On the Greek Crisis

This summary from Anil Kashyap from the University of Chicago is a nice summary. It was posted on Bogleheads earlier by Larry Swedroe.
__________________
We are, as I have said, one equation short. – Keynes
ronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 01:20 PM   #207
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin View Post
A Primer On the Greek Crisis

This summary from Anil Kashyap from the University of Chicago is a nice summary. It was posted on Bogleheads earlier by Larry Swedroe.
Interesting, so it's not about Greece itself:

1. In 2010, the "bailout" was mainly to protect the French and German banks, not save Greece.

2. The EU won't cave into Greece because it may set a precedent for Spain and Italy.
__________________
explanade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 01:36 PM   #208
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Interesting, so it's not about Greece itself:

1. In 2010, the "bailout" was mainly to protect the French and German banks, not save Greece.

2. The EU won't cave into Greece because it may set a precedent for Spain and Italy.



What the heck do you think the French and German banks had to be protected from? Greece's exemplary fiscal policies and superb productivity?


Right, it's not about Greece. Pay no attention to that Country behind the curtain!

Amazing.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 01:38 PM   #209
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,416
They had to be protected from making bad loans.

You probably blame the subprime crisis only on the borrowers, not the lenders, who were bailed out anyways.
__________________
explanade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 01:46 PM   #210
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Interesting, so it's not about Greece itself:

1. In 2010, the "bailout" was mainly to protect the French and German banks, not save Greece.
That goes without saying. They are not trying to save Greek for humanitarian reasons. For bigger picture of things, if one country (Greece) gets away with their (German, France) banking system, another and even bigger country can do & expect the same.

Bottom line, however hard it is for Greeks, they need to find their way out of it, be it the hard way. At least, that's my hope.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 01:58 PM   #211
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
They had to be protected from making bad loans.

You probably blame the subprime crisis only on the borrowers, not the lenders, who were bailed out anyways.
Well, if a borrower takes out a highly leveraged/risky loan, then the borrower has to accept responsibility if/when they run into trouble.

All through life, people will offer you deals that are not good for you - you need to learn to say 'no'. If you want to blame the people making the offers, you are trying to push a rope, and it will likely end badly. Hmmm, sounds like Greece right now?

There were other 'players' in the subprime crisis that deserve a lot of the blame, but I won't go there, or this thread will get shut down. We're probably dancing on the edge now.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 02:01 PM   #212
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,389
Greece problem stems from generous government spending and benefits. By the time they could not hide the problem from lenders, it was already too late, and the problem avalanched.

Before we exhibit too much schadenfreude, we should remember that we already have pension problems here at home in the US. But it is so far only at the town or city level. In a decade or two, we will see if the bigger problem will surface at the state level, as we have been warned about.

At the federal level, the solution would be inflation to devalue the debt. Inflation is extremely efficient and handy to erase the debt, while protecting workers whose income would more or less keep up. You would not have the cash crunch that paralyzes Greece right now.

At the state level where no money printing is allowed, like Greece now, the problem becomes more "interesting".

PS. Forgot that Puerto Rico is in trouble now. Can we consider it equivalent to a state?
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 02:48 PM   #213
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,389
I forgot to add that Puerto Rico debt is $72B for 3.6M people. That works out to a "mere" $20K/person. But Puerto Ricans are leaving the island, and are not sticking around.

Again, as I mentioned in an ealier post, Greece debt is about US$32K/person.

And the US national debt is US$72K/person. We still need to add to that various state debts.

It's a good thing our debts are all in US dollars.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 02:57 PM   #214
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Well some of the early retirees are those who lose jobs and have no prospects, being middle aged and in a job market with 26% unemployment.

So they go for early pension if they can and typically these are well under 1000 Euro a month.
Chicken or egg argument. I would say retirement at 50 yo was one of the reasons their economy imploded and led to such high unemployment, so should they continue down that path?
__________________
Doing things today that others won't, to do things tomorrow that others can't. Of course I'm referring to workouts, not robbing banks.
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 03:22 PM   #215
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Grapetown
Posts: 787
It is the same reason the employment participation rate is so low here in the states.
__________________
Winemaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 03:52 PM   #216
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Nemo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Belleville, ONT
Posts: 4,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post
I presume its known to many except the politicians. The biggest one is spend $s within or below your means. We know that one pretty well on this forum.
Yes, the pols were the ones I was wondering about.
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."

The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
Nemo2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 05:28 PM   #217
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Well, if a borrower takes out a highly leveraged/risky loan, then the borrower has to accept responsibility if/when they run into trouble.

All through life, people will offer you deals that are not good for you - you need to learn to say 'no'. If you want to blame the people making the offers, you are trying to push a rope, and it will likely end badly. Hmmm, sounds like Greece right now?

There were other 'players' in the subprime crisis that deserve a lot of the blame, but I won't go there, or this thread will get shut down. We're probably dancing on the edge now.

-ERD50
You cannot make this work in a democracy. Wherever the moral righteousness lies doesn't matter unless you are willing to quell riots Tiananmen style. Which also means that you must accept a dictatorship. Everyone and every group or nation that is today getting payments for whatever, they are actually getting payments to refrain from fomenting social chaos that would likely require brutal repression to put down.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:06 PM   #218
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Lsbcal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: west coast, hi there!
Posts: 5,673
I have yet to see a plan for what would be done if Greece leaves the EU (votes "no" on July 5). Without a plan why would anyone vote "no"?

Where is the plan for Greek survival if not backstopped by the EU? Won't pensioners starve whereas now they are getting some Euros?

There is this from Wikipedia with no mention of the costs or who pays:
Plan Z during 2012

Quote:
"Plan Z" is the name given to a 2012 plan to enable Greece to withdraw from the eurozone in the event of Greek bank collapse.[20] It was drawn up in absolute secrecy by small teams totalling approximately two dozen officials at the European Commission (Brussels), the European Central Bank (Frankfurt) and the IMF (Washington).[20] Those officials were headed by Jörg Asmussen (ECB), Thomas Wieser (Euro working group), Poul Thomsen (IMF) and Marco Buti (European Commission).[20] To prevent premature disclosure no single document was created, no emails were exchanged, and no Greek officials were informed.[20] The plan was based on the 2003 introduction of new dinars into Iraq by the Americans[20] and would have required rebuilding the Greek economy and banking system ab initio, including isolating Greek banks by disconnecting them from the TARGET2 system, closing ATMs, and imposing capital and currency controls.[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...m_the_eurozone
__________________
Lsbcal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:11 PM   #219
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post
Failing to do the right thing in a timely manner is the issue.
Like the U.S. Congress and Social Security. Tick, tock, tick, tock ....
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:13 PM   #220
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totoro View Post
....For some letting go of Greece would be similar to remove California or Texas from the USA.
Tough choice.... I pick....
__________________

__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Greece Debt - Wouldn't this be a form of default? chinaco FIRE and Money 15 09-30-2011 01:56 PM
Greenspan, US Debt and Greece Pete FIRE and Money 1 06-19-2010 08:27 AM
Cheap flights to Athens, Greece? CheapCanuck Travel Information 4 02-11-2008 01:20 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:10 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.