Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07-07-2015, 12:21 PM   #421
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Nemo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Belleville, ONT
Posts: 4,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by springnr View Post
Starting to remind me of Somali pirates taking a ship hostage for ransom.
Geez, we're scheduled for a port stop in Corfu on November 03.......now we have to worry about being forced to sit on the dockside eating olives and drinking ouzo & retsina until they're paid off?
__________________

__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."

The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
Nemo2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-07-2015, 01:06 PM   #422
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo2 View Post
Geez, we're scheduled for a port stop in Corfu on November 03.......now we have to worry about being forced to sit on the dockside eating olives and drinking ouzo & retsina until they're paid off?
Yep, Greece holding possible Euro unraveling and their geolocation impact to world politics hostage for debt forgiveness....
If still in-progress or not, dockside eating olives and drinking ouzo & retsina appears to be in your future.
__________________

__________________
springnr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 01:50 PM   #423
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Brat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 5,913
I think Greece should get off the Euro bandwagon. Culturally they are not fiscally self disciplined, let their own currency float based on their political decisions.

Watching that chaos will give other larger but problematic governments and their citizens pause.

Leaving the Euro should not require leaving the EU.
__________________
Duck bjorn.
Brat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 02:10 PM   #424
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Nemo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Belleville, ONT
Posts: 4,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo2 View Post
Does the Greek government even have the wherewithal to print & distribute new Drachmas? (Presuming that they've long since destroyed all the previously obsolete ones.)
We can't print drachmas, says Greece's finance minister

Quote:
With speculation swirling that Greece might be forced out of the euro and have to print its own money after a weekend referendum, its finance minister on Thursday said the country no longer had the presses to make drachmas.

"We don't have the capacity," Yanis Varoufakis told Australian public radio network ABC.

In 2000, the year before Greece joined the eurozone, "one of the things we had to do was get rid of all our printing presses" as part of the bloc's assertion that "this monetary union is irreversible," he said.

"We smashed the printing presses -- we have no printing presses," Varoufakis said.
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."

The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
Nemo2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 02:18 PM   #425
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemo2 View Post
Geez, we're scheduled for a port stop in Corfu on November 03.......now we have to worry about being forced to sit on the dockside eating olives and drinking ouzo & retsina until they're paid off?
If you can get something more than olives, like some protein, to go with the drinks, it will lessen the ordeal. Like this grilled fish whose photo I linked off the Web.

__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 02:21 PM   #426
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 348
Has anybody in Europe or elsewhere figured out the cost to have 18 finance ministers and 18 heads of state spend so much time on one country's problems (18 is not counting Greece)? I suppose they think it's worth it; anyway it's less than the @ Euro 350 billion that everybody knows is not going to be repaid.
__________________
DEC-1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 03:02 PM   #427
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 359
We need Dave Ramsey to advice the head of Greece. Beans and rice....
__________________
fh2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 03:07 PM   #428
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Nemo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Belleville, ONT
Posts: 4,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
If you can get something more than olives, like some protein, to go with the drinks, it will lessen the ordeal. Like this grilled fish whose photo I linked off the Web.

Picked up a couple packets of Haddock at Costco the other day......soon as we've finished this batch of Burritos we'll cook up a little.

Shipboard, we generally have (at least some) fish twice a day.......but, late 1980s, on La Dique, Seychelles, we pretty much had fish every meal...ended up smelling like a Pelican!
__________________
"Exit, pursued by a bear."

The Winter's Tale, William Shakespeare
Nemo2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 04:07 PM   #429
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,424
FT reports (with no details)
Quote:
EU leaders have given Greece until Sunday to reach an agreement or face bankruptcy and collapse of its banking sector, announcing a summit of all 28 leaders for Sunday.
__________________
MichaelB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 04:14 PM   #430
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
FT reports (with no details)
Quote:
EU leaders have given Greece until Sunday to reach an agreement or face bankruptcy and collapse of its banking sector, announcing a summit of all 28 leaders for Sunday.
Seems a bit odd. We know the upcoming payments to the ECB and IMF won't be made, so those loans go into default without any further action. The EU leaders shouldn't be giving Greece any ultimatums or deadlines, that just plays to Tsipras's hand. The EU leaders don't need to say or do anything--the Greek banks will become insolvent, the money will run out, external sources of goods will not ship without payment in advance, and Greece will have the autonomy she wanted to solve her problems on her own terms.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 04:15 PM   #431
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEC-1982 View Post
Has anybody in Europe or elsewhere figured out the cost to have 18 finance ministers and 18 heads of state spend so much time on one country's problems (18 is not counting Greece)? I suppose they think it's worth it; anyway it's less than the @ Euro 350 billion that everybody knows is not going to be repaid.

I agree this seems crazy waste of time. Imagine if all the 50 governors and the state treasurers, plus the President, Janet Yellen, and Treasury Secretary spend this much time worrying about Puerto Rico's bankruptcy.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 04:18 PM   #432
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
I agree this seems crazy waste of time. Imagine if all the 50 governors and the state treasurers, plus the President, Janet Yellen, and Treasury Secretary spend this much time worrying about Puerto Rico's bankruptcy.
Well, maybe if PR's debt is 370B Euros instead of US$72B, and is held inside other states' pension funds.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 04:35 PM   #433
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,424
I'm not smart enough to know if this upcoming meeting is a good idea or not. It does seem they all need to be involved, because this is not so much about debt payment as it is about how the EU works and if a feasible action plan is possible within the EU framework. Or, possibly this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat View Post
I think Greece should get off the Euro bandwagon. Culturally they are not fiscally self disciplined, let their own currency float based on their political decisions.

Watching that chaos will give other larger but problematic governments and their citizens pause.

Leaving the Euro should not require leaving the EU.
__________________
MichaelB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 05:27 PM   #434
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lakewood90712's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,316
No problem. North Korea has experience printing banknotes, as it is the largest producer of extremely high quality counterfeit US $20 and $100 bills. Should be no problem to subcontract the work. Not sure what the NK gov. would want as payment. ? Real Euros ?
__________________
Lakewood90712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 06:09 PM   #435
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 119
Not much sympathy here for Greece, and lots of cultural stereotyping about how Greeks lack fiscal discipline, etc. But those of you who have that view might want to take a look at this graph:



2010 and 2012 were the years in which the EU imposed austerity measures on Greece, and you can see what happened. And here's the cumulative result:



Greece is on course to have the worst peacetime depression of developed countries in recent history, and it is largely due to the punitive measures imposed by the EU in the wake of the financial crisis. And lots of suffering -- unemployment is at 25% and youth unemployment is at 50%.
__________________
Fred123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 06:49 PM   #436
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,400
Yes, I saw somewhere that Greece's GDP rose rapidly until the financial bubble burst in the US. Not being an economist, I wonder how GDP is measured. Say, if the government spends $1B to hire workers to do non-productive work, does the entire $1B get counted as GDP or something less?

And there have been talks about how Greece did some creative accounting to show its economy in better lights in order to get into the euro.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 06:57 PM   #437
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,420
Yup, Goldman Sachs helped Greece cook the books.

As far as govt. workers being counted in the GDP, yes they are. Even Germany and Switzerland, which are considered models of fiscal probity, have large public sectors.

Govt civil servants get paid, spend money in the economy, which allows businesses they patronize to make money.

In the US, there are towns where a big govt agency or a military base is the economic foundation of those towns. Or big govt. contractors.

Inconvenient facts for those who claim govt. can't create jobs. Maybe it's not the most efficient way to create jobs but it provides livelihood, both directly and indirectly, for a lot of people.
__________________
explanade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 07:00 PM   #438
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
And there have been talks about how Greece did some creative accounting to show its economy in better lights in order to get into the euro.
With the help of of our Goldman Sachs, no doubt "doing God's work". Isn't that what the Goldman Sachs CEO said at one time?
__________________
DEC-1982 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 07:02 PM   #439
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,400
Surely, government jobs are real. However, the functions are more of the public service, regulatory and administrative types, not true production. We need firefighters, policemen, tax auditors, etc... But how many of them do we need relative to carpenters, brick layers, bakers, farmers, etc...?

So, the underlying problem may be that while no country can exist without a public sector, is it possible that some may have just too much?
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2015, 07:17 PM   #440
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred123 View Post
Not much sympathy here for Greece, and lots of cultural stereotyping about how Greeks lack fiscal discipline, etc.
Well, if you want to make the case that the Greek government is fiscally disciplined, go ahead. It absolutely is not. If you want to ascribe that to "culture", I'm not sure where that leads us. But the numbers are what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred123 View Post
Greece is on course to have the worst peacetime depression of developed countries in recent history, and it is largely due to the punitive measures imposed by the EU in the wake of the financial crisis. And lots of suffering -- unemployment is at 25% and youth unemployment is at 50%.
Yes, lots of suffering, and much more to come. The causes of that suffering are manifold.

Greece's creditors loaned that nation money that Greece requested. The "austerity" these creditors later requested was not due to the fact that Greece borrowed money. The fiscal restraint was requested by creditors as a condition when Greece requested to borrow more money, and when Greece requested an easing of previously agreed terms. Greece was free to accept or reject those conditions. They promised to implement specific reforms to get additional money--and they followed through on very few of them. Which is an important reason their economy continues to be in shambles.

Greece's public sector is a bloated mess, the product of four decades of patronage. Public sectors may provide jobs, but they very seldom increase the net wealth of a nation. Obviously a public sector of some size is essential to allow the proper functioning of the private sector, but in Greece the high tax rates and regulatory burden are effectively killing the private sector. That's what your graphs show.
__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Greece Debt - Wouldn't this be a form of default? chinaco FIRE and Money 15 09-30-2011 01:56 PM
Greenspan, US Debt and Greece Pete FIRE and Money 1 06-19-2010 08:27 AM
Cheap flights to Athens, Greece? CheapCanuck Travel Information 4 02-11-2008 01:20 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.