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Old 07-12-2015, 09:15 PM   #561
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In the event of (another) default, I don't know how practical it would be for any of the creditors to actually take possession of Greek state assets that are being mentioned as collateral. And what would they do with them? That's either being put in there to kill the deal with the Greek Parliament or to help sell it among the rest of Europe.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:47 PM   #562
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Well as the Greeks like to point out, they are a democracy, but unfortunately, in a democracy you never get a government better than you deserve.
As I said earlier, if we look back in history we will see uncounted times that the populace was led down an abyss by its leaders. What is happening in Greece so far does not stray too far from the range of outsiders' expectations, but the Greeks could not understand what was happening to them.

When the referendum was passed with the "No" vote, people were elated. They truly believed that their will would be imposed on the rest of Europe, that new money would come for their life to resume as usual. Then, they were devastated when learning that Tsipras conceded.

As I mentioned earlier, people are generally optimistic and want to believe that bad things will not happen. Philosophically, people have to be this way, because if one is too pessimistic or takes a fatalistic attitude, life will be sadder.
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Old 07-12-2015, 09:56 PM   #563
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In the event of (another) default, I don't know how practical it would be for any of the creditors to actually take possession of Greek state assets that are being mentioned as collateral. And what would they do with them? That's either being put in there to kill the deal with the Greek Parliament or to help sell it among the rest of Europe.
+1.

"Greek 911" operator: Yes, what is the problem.

Phone caller: I'd like to call to report a robbery, over at the (now) German Parthenon.

"Greek 911" operator: Ok, we'll send someone right over.

No officer ever is sent. What is the sovereign gov't going to do - sue Greece for not providing adequate public services to the foreclosed-on property?

Or if there is vandalism by Greek residents, how much is the foreign gov't going to pump into maintaining whatever it is they now own? Will they hire local Greeks to operate it? Want to take a guess how well the Greek populace will run it?
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:18 AM   #564
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Somebody calculated that a 3-Euro donation from everybody in the European Union would pay off the Greek debt. Crowd-funding. The website keeps crashing from the overwhelming response.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...ut-fund#/story
A follow-up to the above: This fund raising closed on July 6, with a total of 1,930,577 euros raised, far short of the 1.6B goal.

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And seems to me one of the biggest questions is about the future of all the unemployed youth. They are coming into a world their predecessors created for them, a word of very few opportunities and they are understandably angry, and will probably get even more so. The big question then: will they drift to the far right, or to the far left, or will there be a clash between those that choose one vs other? We have seen this happen before in Europe during times of economic crisis and the results were never pretty.
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And so many of them .. unemployment rates are levels not seen since .. well ever I think:
Europe's Record Youth Unemployment: The Scariest Graph in the World Just Got Scarier - The Atlantic

Many of them will drift northwest geographically (to find work). The ones that stay seem to be going left politically.
They soon will have 3.05M retirees, over a population of 11.1M before any exodus. That's 27.5%, computed over all citizens including children. If young Greeks leave the country, the ratio will go even higher. There will be fewer left to support the economy and the retirees.

Whatever will happen will be a lesson to other countries, not to accommodate the retirees at the expense of their young.
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:19 AM   #565
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...
Whatever will happen will be a lesson to other countries, not to accommodate the retirees at the expense of their young.
Luckily, for us old geezers, countries are slow learners.
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Old 07-13-2015, 05:01 AM   #566
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I am a retiree and have never been accommodated by anyone; having to educate my self for a good career and save for my own retirement funding. I see now that Greece has been put through a very tight wringer in order to obtain another bailout. Good riddance to the Greek leadership in getting parliament to approve such strict terms.
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Old 07-13-2015, 05:08 AM   #567
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Do not mess with Merkel. Tsipras, having been castrated by same, is now limping home.
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Old 07-13-2015, 06:29 AM   #568
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Greek banks have been closed for 2 weeks, so the economic damage will be severe. Hopefully it will not be catastrophic and activity can recover to close to previous levels. The challenges ahead are still enormous and the Greek people have a long and hard road ahead.
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Old 07-13-2015, 06:36 AM   #569
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I am sceptical about the new 50 billion euro in asset sales. Looking at the past

"But in the last five years, Greece has sold only a paltry €3.2 billion of assets,
about 94 percent below the target. The choicest assets were bought at discounts
by wealthy Greek businessmen."
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:07 AM   #570
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I must admit I'm surprised and, frankly, don't think Greece should do it. I think Greece (and the rest of Europe) would be better off with Greece getting out of the euro.

This doesn't mean that I think Greece didn't originally get itself into its financial woes by overspending. I think it did. But, I don't think these kinds of measures make it more likely that Greece can repay the debt.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:19 AM   #571
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The euro is up against other currencies this morning, I think the markets believe that the recent announcements make it more likely an agreement will be reached.
So, is the euro up because:
1) The traders always bid it up by force of habit anytime an agreement with Greece is reached?
2) Traders believe that the terms are onerous enough that it will provide a disincentive for fiscal irresponsibility among other eurozone nations?
3) Traders believe the euro will be a stronger currency with Greece aboard than if Greece drops the euro?
4) Something else?

I doubt it is number 3.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:25 AM   #572
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Let's not forget the additions the Greek crisis has already made to the English language. "Grexit" has been the most popular and widely known new word, but I've also seen "gretigue" (extreme fatigue over the seemingly never-ending crisis) and just today "agreekment" (a compromise achieved by the weaker party in the negotiations abjectly conceding every point of substance). We'll see what other creations the ingenious wordsmiths come up with before this crisis runs its course.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:28 AM   #573
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It's not signed, sealed and delivered yet.

There are 3 big obstacles Greece still needs to clear before getting more bailout cash:

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/gre...14468-Jul2015/
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:40 AM   #574
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In the short term, they need an infusion of cash and probably playing ball with the EU is the easiest way.

In the long term, getting out of the EZ and defaulting on the debt may be better for them.

But with the banks and the people running out of cash, maybe they felt they had no choice.

If they institute all these conditions, Greece will no more be able to pay its debts in the future than it has been able to in the past.

So a few years from now, we'll probably be facing this crisis again.
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Old 07-13-2015, 11:59 AM   #575
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This Greek tragedy will not end soon. It is only interesting to watch because the US is not involved.

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Luckily, for us old geezers, countries are slow learners.
Plus I do not think I will live to be 100. It's hard in one's old age to have youngsters with placards outside the nursing homes chanting "Down with geezers" because they are fed up with SS and Medicare costs.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:04 PM   #576
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The time-honored Greek tradition of never working on Sunday is captured in this link:


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Old 07-13-2015, 12:08 PM   #577
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Yes, it's a classic movie, same as Zorba the Greek. And I knew the theme song back from that time too.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:20 PM   #578
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...It's hard in one's old age to have youngsters with placards outside the nursing homes chanting "Down with geezers" because they are fed up with SS and Medicare costs.
My children are currently forcing me to make them placards that say, "Down with Geezers!!!". But, it's not all that bad, as they are letting me select the crayons I want to use.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:25 PM   #579
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That sounds like a fun project for you. Will you post a photo of the results?

And to go with the mood while you make the placards, here's the song from the above movie, covered by Petula Clark.

PS. I just looked it up, and indeed this song won an Academy Award for Best Song. Hence I knew the song from childhood though I did not get to see the movie on DVD until recently.

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Old 07-13-2015, 12:48 PM   #580
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So a few years from now, we'll probably be facing this crisis again.
Actually, there is no clear end in sight to this mess. The Greek debt is so large now that it's almost certainly "unpayable", similar to the Puerto Rico situation. And, with the Greek economy now in shambles, and the country having to submit to foreign control of many state assets, the misery will only get worse, and stay bad for years and years to come. So, at some point it is probably best for them to leave the Euro and the EU. But, none of the European leaders wanted that to occur on their watch, so it didn't happen (for now, anyway).
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