Greece

[NW-Bound]

I saw on BBC Web site a video portraying a single woman with a child who was unemployed and tried to live on 10 euros/week. Some part-time cleaning jobs were all she could find, and the reason she was not homeless was because her landlord let her stay for now. She has no welfare support from the state, who cannot even pay retirees the pension that was promised.

Another BBC article mentioned that in the last 5 years, Greece population has dropped 400,000 by emigration, of which 120,000 are professionals such as doctors, engineers, and scientists. This is for a country of 11 million total. Of the people leaving Greece, nine in 10 hold a university degree and more than 60% of those have a master's degree, while 11% hold a PhD.

It's hard to believe how a bad government can doom a nation to such destitution in such a short time. But it's not the first time, and will not be the last.

For more, see: How bad are things for the people of Greece? - BBC News.

 

[Meadbh]

Another BBC article mentioned that in the last 5 years, Greece population has dropped 400,000 by emigration, of which 120,000 are professionals such as doctors, engineers, and scientists. This is for a country of 11 million total. Of the people leaving Greece, nine in 10 hold a university degree and more than 60% of those have a master's degree, while 11% hold a PhD.[/url].

Ireland had the highest net emigration per capita in Europe in 2012, despite having had the highest net immigration per capita just six years earlier.
Ireland has highest net emigration level in Europe

47% of emigrants from Ireland in 2013-14 had third level education.
Population and Migration Estimates April 2014 - CSO - Central Statistics Office

We've always been a pretty mobile bunch.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_emigration

 

[AnIntentionalRoad]

I think the crux of the issue is lack of entrepreneurial spirit and inability for the state to increase the supply of money in the economy, IE they have no control over the Euro, whereas a country like the US or UK can print money to lubricate the economy.

Sent from my SM-T237P using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

 

[explanade]

But Europe overall isn't that great for entrepreneurship, at least in high tech.

Many of the Europeans who are educated in CS or other engineering disciplines come to the US, either to work for a tech company or start up their own companies.

 

[aja8888]

But Europe overall isn't that great for entrepreneurship, at least in high tech.

Many of the Europeans who are educated in CS or other engineering disciplines come to the US, either to work for a tech company or start up their own companies.

Have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_European_companies_by_revenue

 

[explanade]

I'm not denying there aren't big businesses there.

I was responding to the above post about lack of entrepreneurship in Greece.

I think that's generally true of Europe, not because the labor market isn't talented but because it's harder for start up companies to succeed. There isn't the same kind of investment infrastructure for new businesses, like the venture capital available to high tech.

A lot of the companies on that list are former state enterprises which were privatized only in the last 20-30 years.

 

[aja8888]

I'm not denying there aren't big businesses there.

I was responding to the above post about lack of entrepreneurship in Greece.

I think that's generally true of Europe, not because the labor market isn't talented but because it's harder for start up companies to succeed. There isn't the same kind of investment infrastructure for new businesses, like the venture capital available to high tech.

A lot of the companies on that list are former state enterprises which were privatized only in the last 20-30 years.

Here's only the top 25 hot startups in Europe:

Top 25 Hottest European Early-Stage Companies - Informilo

 

[explanade]

Interesting, most of those are in the UK (including Ireland).

 

[Nemo2]

We've always been a pretty mobile bunch.

"Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again."

Mary Oliver.

 

[Meadbh]

Interesting, most of those are in the UK (including Ireland).

Ahem. The UK does not include the Republic of Ireland. Only Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

Republics and monarchies are not compatible.

 

[explanade]

Ah yes.

Of course Ireland has catered to the tech industry so it's no surprise they have tech startups.

 

[Fermion]

Ah yes.

Of course Ireland has catered to the tech industry so it's no surprise they have tech startups.

Microsoft has a pretty big division there.

 

[Meadbh]

Ah yes.

Of course Ireland has catered to the tech industry so it's no surprise they have tech startups.

True. That has been generations in the making.

Information & Communications Technology (ICT) sector profile - Enterprise Ireland

http://www.independent.ie/business/...reland-is-punching-above-weight-26714000.html

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/car...industry-in-ireland-now-employs-105000-people

I don't think Greece has been working on anything equivalent.

 

[Totoro]

I was responding to the above post about lack of entrepreneurship in Greece.

I think that's generally true of Europe, not because the labor market isn't talented but because it's harder for start up companies to succeed. There isn't the same kind of investment infrastructure for new businesses, like the venture capital available to high tech.

Tis different. Europe sucks for big dotcom style stuff because of the fragmented market and indeed lack of big bucks VC. There were a lot of facebook competitors for example that all got clobbered because they didn't expand quickly enough (netlog, hyves to name just a few).

It's great though for B2B and industrial innovation, also healthcare. Alot less visible and less mega-corps come out of it.

Sometimes invisible successes (Swift for example). Or Angry Birds

And there are huge differences across Europe.

 

[yakers]

So where is Greece now? Can just kicked down the road or possible improvements on the horizon? What next event will tell whether the bailout has worked or failed?

 

[Totoro]

With some luck spotlight moves on, making some room for deflating egos. And then Greece will get more debt relief. So yes, can seems to forcefully kicked down the proverbial road once more.

Unclear what the next deadline is (and maybe for the best)

 

[MichaelB]

So where is Greece now?

It's still on the southern tip of the Balkan peninsula.

 

[explanade]

Well if the Greece economy contracts further, they won't be able to meet whatever debt payment schedule they come up with now.

A lot of the things which the creditors imposed are going to increase the prices of tourism in Greece, e.g. higher VAT for hotels and restaurants.

Then of course higher taxes to the residents and cuts in pensions and jobs, which could reduce consumer spending even further.

So we could be back to the crisis in a few years.

 

[eytonxav]

So we [-]could[/-] will be back to the crisis in a few years.

FIFY - There should be no debate about this statement

 

[haha]

So where is Greece now?

East of Italy, west of Turkey, south of Bulgaria and the Balkans. However this area is earthquake prone, so this is subject to change.

Ha

 

[youbet]

Well if the Greece economy contracts further, they won't be able to meet whatever debt payment schedule they come up with now.

A lot of the things which the creditors imposed are going to increase the prices of tourism in Greece, e.g. higher VAT for hotels and restaurants.

Then of course higher taxes to the residents and cuts in pensions and jobs, which could reduce consumer spending even further.

So we could be back to the crisis in a few years.

Yet, there seems to be no justification for investing in Greece with the hope of the investment being profitable. While pumping money into some start-ups to get them through the early years can prove to be very profitable in the long run, I don't think Greece is a start-up business that will ever be profitable regardless of initial support.

Investment and deficit spending is right for some situations. Austerity and living within your means is right for others.

If you had a chance to pool personal money with others to loan Greece, would you do it? Do you think loaning them money would be a good investment for you to make using your own funds?

 

[samclem]

If you had a chance to pool personal money with others to help Greece, would you do it? Do you think loaning them money would be a good investment for you to make using your own funds?

For the Europeans, the situation is somewhat complicated. If Greece spirals down economically, it has all kinds of security implications for them (unimpeded immigrant flows, a way for Russia to cause damage/gain leverage, etc). It would be like having a neighbor with a wreck of a house--you've offered advice and given him money to buy a mower and pump the overflowing septic tank that is dumping into your yard, but he's spent the money on a big screen TV and the ponies. Now he wants more, and knows what has worked in the past.
"But if I don't have money to buy a suit, I won't be able to get a job and fix the house."

 

[HFWR]

For the Europeans, the situation is somewhat complicated. If Greece spirals down economically, it has all kinds of security implications for them (unimpeded immigrant flows, a way for Russia to cause damage/gain leverage, etc). It would be like having a neighbor with a wreck of a house--you've offered advice and given him money to buy a mower and pump the overflowing septic tank that is dumping into your yard, but he's spent the money on a big screen TV and the ponies. Now he wants more, and knows what has worked in the past.
"But if I don't have money to buy a suit, I won't be able to get a job and fix the house."

A good capitalistic solution is to foreclose, then sell the naming rights to the highest bidder. "Welcome to the Verizon Wireless Acropolis. While here, be sure to visit the Copenhagen-Santorini and Tide-Mykonos Islands..."

 

[Totoro]

A good capitalistic solution is to foreclose, then sell the naming rights to the highest bidder. "Welcome to the Verizon Wireless Acropolis. While here, be sure to visit the Copenhagen-Santorini and Tide-Mykonos Islands..."

Or if you don't pay taxes in Europe, let misery fester, and enjoy long cheap stays in Zorbas resort with the finest Ouzo cheap euros can buy?

 

[Texas Proud]

Yet, there seems to be no justification for investing in Greece with the hope of the investment being profitable. While pumping money into some start-ups to get them through the early years can prove to be very profitable in the long run, I don't think Greece is a start-up business that will ever be profitable regardless of initial support.

Investment and deficit spending is right for some situations. Austerity and living within your means is right for others.

If you had a chance to pool personal money with others to loan Greece, would you do it? Do you think loaning them money would be a good investment for you to make using your own funds?

I read an article a week or so ago and they said that thousands of companies have gone to Bulgaria where it is much easier to do business...

So, if they do not improve the business environment, they will not fix their problem....