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Old 02-19-2012, 08:45 AM   #201
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What would happen if Obamacare is repealed?

Would there be support for more reform? Or would we revert back to the status quo, with all the impetus for reform pretty much defeated for another 15 years or so?
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:54 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by explanade View Post
What would happen if Obamacare is repealed?

Would there be support for more reform? Or would we revert back to the status quo, with all the impetus for reform pretty much defeated for another 15 years or so?
This has been discussed previously. One thread Obamacare in the supreme ct
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:57 AM   #203
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What would happen if Obamacare is repealed?

Would there be support for more reform? Or would we revert back to the status quo, with all the impetus for reform pretty much defeated for another 15 years or so?
Just watching...
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File Type: gif PorkyPigBig.gif (12.7 KB, 1 views)
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:02 AM   #204
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What would happen if Obamacare is repealed?

Would there be support for more reform? Or would we revert back to the status quo, with all the impetus for reform pretty much defeated for another 15 years or so?
It is virtually impossible to discuss this subject without "going political" and drawing the attention of that famous pig appearing at the end of closed threads - like the one MichaelB linked above.

A Google search on the subject reveals thousands of opinions, mostly one-sided, accusing the [insert reviled political view here] of some heinous crime against the American public. It seems a shame that rational thinking appears to evaporate whenever this subject comes up.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:09 AM   #205
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Come on you guys. The fact that most previous discussions about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act came to a porky end does not mean we can't talk about it as objective, open minded adults interested in the opinions of others.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:11 AM   #206
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How can we talk about whether the system needs to be changed, where the system is lacking, etc. without considering the current state of policy?

Yes it's a very divisive topic, like the brouhaha the past couple of weeks about coverage for contraception provided for in the new legislation (which won't fully take effect for another couple of years).

The discussion about health care in other countries is interesting but it was done to death in 2008 and 2009. The notion of changing our system to be more like one of the other systems is currently not on the table.

But would it be any time soon? Or are we always going to end up with an American-crafted system, which may or may not be better than what we have now?
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:13 AM   #207
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The fact that most previous discussions about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act came to a porky end does not mean we can't talk about it as objective, open minded adults interested in the opinions of others.
Wanna bet?
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:18 AM   #208
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Wanna bet?
I can be occasionally snarky and sarcastic, even naive, but I'm not that dumb.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:21 AM   #209
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Come on you guys. The fact that most previous discussions about the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act came to a porky end does not mean we can't talk about it as objective, open minded adults interested in the opinions of others.
Now where's that sarcasm font...see post #8 in this thread.

There are few people who know the PPACA well enough to discuss it productively, self included. Most of the discussions I've seen are based on scant facts, if I can see through them, they're indeed scant. But I'd love to learn here and be proven wrong about the knowledge base.

And there's a voice missing, her last post shows "N/A" - I'm afraid what that means.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:38 AM   #210
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And it's not clear the UK is "the most socialized" but it is clear we're the costly outlier.
There is no provision for private insurance within the NHS. It is one of the few systems that is entirely funded by from Government taxation. The UK has private insurers and hospitals but they work in parallel.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:07 PM   #211
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There are few people who know the PPACA well enough to discuss it productively, self included. Most of the discussions I've seen are based on scant facts, if I can see through them, they're indeed scant. But I'd love to learn here and be proven wrong about the knowledge base.

And there's a voice missing, her last post shows "N/A" - I'm afraid what that means.
The good in PPACA is it's removal of underwriting on the basis of health. A big negative is its complexity. Here is the iconic explanation pamphlet the UK Government produced for the NHS back in 1948. It's interesting to compare it to the literature you see today to explain US health care plans. An interesting remark is make under "Hospital and Specialist Services" where mentions that if to don't want to use the new service you can make your own arrangements with your doctor.

http://www.wihb.scot.nhs.uk/60th/Leaflets/leaflet.pdf
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:14 PM   #212
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How can we talk about whether the system needs to be changed, where the system is lacking, etc. without considering the current state of policy?

Yes it's a very divisive topic, like the brouhaha the past couple of weeks about coverage for contraception provided for in the new legislation (which won't fully take effect for another couple of years).

The discussion about health care in other countries is interesting but it was done to death in 2008 and 2009. The notion of changing our system to be more like one of the other systems is currently not on the table.

But would it be any time soon? Or are we always going to end up with an American-crafted system, which may or may not be better than what we have now?
My view is that we will end up with an American-crafted system since I cannot see a non-profit based system being adopted.

However, to control costs I think there have to be changes in legislation to limit profits, the ability to carve up the market, collabrative price fixing etc. (I think anti-trust laws should apply to HI companies like they do to the rest of business).

I think there should be controls over excessive referals and tests, particularly when the referals and tests increase the profits of the people making the referals. (an increasing number of Doctors have financial interests in the labs and clinics they use for their patients). This is strictly regulated in the business world, even before Sarbanes Oxley tightened up those existing laws.

An example in normal business is that it is illegal for a "buyer" in a company to make purchases from another company where he, or his friends and relatives, make financial gain. External auditors will annually study the "delegations of authority" within company procedures to assure such profiteering is not possible.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #213
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Well one of the advantages of single-payer is the possibility of volume discounts. But lobbyist-driven laws prevent that for prescription drugs, for instance.

There would be vehement ideological opposition to limiting profits, of course.

The doctors and hospitals would see their incomes endangered so they would not assent quietly. In fact the AMA supposedly took part in a campaign in Canada (yes, the American Medical Association inserted themselves in a Canadian policy debate) in the '60s, warning that if Canada adopted the system it has now, there would be mass migration of Canadian doctors to the US).

Doctors have widespread sympathy by the public, the opposite of how lawyers are viewed.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:08 AM   #214
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Doctors have widespread sympathy by the public, the opposite of how lawyers are viewed.
After years of bad experiences in Megacorp medical case management, I don't have a universally positive view of doctors. There are good and bad as with all professions. However, I realize my experience was influenced by "bad" employees seeking out unscrupulous doctors to scam the company for time off with pay.

But your view is indeed the general consensus.
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And car salesmen, true to the stereotype, are the least trusted, although you really should consider that undercoating.

Doctors, pharmacists, soldiers and pilots are the most trusted professions in the country, according to a new Ipsos Reid poll, while CEOs and politicians rank alongside car salesmen as the least trustworthy. Fully 78 per cent of respondents said they trusted pharmacists, beating out doctors (75 per cent), soldiers (74 per cent), pilots (73 per cent), and teachers (65 per cent). Professions that saw the biggest rises from the 2011 include journalists (from a marginal 29 per cent up to a marginally more marginal 31 per cent), lawyers (up three points to 25 per cent), and environmental activists (up two points to 30 per cent). On the flip side, only six per cent of respondents said they trusted car salesmen, while 10 per cent said the same about federal politicians. Union leaders (16 per cent), municipal politicians (17 per cent), and CEOs (19 per cent) rounded out the bottom five, although considering their financial compensation, we doubt most people in those lines of work could give two figs about trustworthiness. Religious leaders dropped five points to 33 per cent, daycare workers fell three points to 56 per cent, and financial advisers dipped three points to 34 per cent. Perhaps the most striking decline in the annual poll has been that of police officers, whose trust level fell from 73 per cent in 2003 to 57 per cent today.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #215
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Am I able to reference a link to another forum? There is a discussion going on about health care by a Canadian that I know everyone would find informative.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #216
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Am I able to reference a link to another forum? There is a discussion going on about health care by a Canadian that I know everyone would find informative.
Why not invite them to come over here?
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:02 PM   #217
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What prompts you to say the US is the best? We are indeed the most expensive by far, almost 50% higher cost per capita than the second most expensive country (Norway) and well over double the average for all developed countries. And the highest as a % of GDP. Yet we're 36th in the world for life expectancy and 34th for infant mortality. I don't doubt the US was once the best, but still - on what basis?

Seems odd that every other developed country has cost effectively gone to some form of universal health care. I don't see the value in our "system" at all, and I am a lifelong conservative.

List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am from Canada and I tend to agree with you that health care cost is so expensive in the US.

According to a CBC documentary about a cardiologist in Canada, his daily activities, hospital work, patient care, family life ... I remember vividly he said that US doctors get paid double what Canadian doctors get paid but he still chooses to stay in Canada because he likes the Canadian system.

He really inspires a lot of people I think, I am one of them. When a cardiologist who is willing to take LESS home (I have no doubt he could find work in the US without any problem), money is not the most important thing in life, it's his passion (to save lives) that is most important !
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:06 PM   #218
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Hi,

I am from Toronto Canada, just registered and testing ...

and hi Modhatter !
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:08 PM   #219
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Hmmm... my first message did not appear (prior to post 217) ...

Post 217 was my 2nd message; So where's my first message
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:13 PM   #220
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What prompts you to say the US is the best? We are indeed the most expensive by far, almost 50% higher cost per capita than the second most expensive country (Norway) and well over double the average for all developed countries. And the highest as a % of GDP. Yet we're 36th in the world for life expectancy and 34th for infant mortality. I don't doubt the US was once the best, but still - on what basis?

Seems odd that every other developed country has cost effectively gone to some form of universal health care. I don't see the value in our "system" at all, and I am a lifelong conservative.

List of countries by total health expenditure (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by infant mortality rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't know if my post will display or not so I don't want to make it too long until it's smooth ...

Yes, health care in the US is too expensive; Canadian doctors take home half what their US counterparts.

Hope this post will display ...
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