Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-08-2011, 10:22 AM   #81
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Health care providers have pricing power because the average person isn't going up on WebMD and say that heart bypass isn't needed or should only cost 50%.
You're leaving out the insurance companies, which may perfectly well refuse to pay, or pay less, for that heart bypass. They have the motive and the power to make those decisions, which is why we've made them our gatekeepers for medical services.

I'll give you a small example. Three and a half years ago, I had a colonoscopy for which my insurance refused to pay. After a lot of back and forth with my doctor's office and the insurance people, I found out what had happened. The insurance company allows screening colonoscopies only every 3-5 years (depending on risk class), and I had had a colonoscopy just 2 years previous. Usually, the doctor's staff keeps track of such things, and will not offer a procedure or service unless the insurance company will pay for it, at least not without warning a patient about the problem. This time, the doctor's staff fouled up. Ordinarily, patients don't witness these behind the scenes negotiations between doctors and insurers.

(It turned out, in this example, that I didn't have to pay, after all, because the doctor's office had mistakenly characterized the procedure as "screening" when it should have been called "diagnostic".)
__________________

__________________
Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-08-2011, 10:25 AM   #82
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
If someone in Big Pharma invented a cure for cancer, they'd throw it away until they developed something that would keep cancer in check for life, but wouldn't cure it. You'd need to take massively expensive Big Pharma drugs for life to prevent it from spreading.

Cures aren't profitable drugs. They are one-and-done. Notice how all the new medications don't cure anything, but merely manage symptoms and need to be taken for life?
I'll agree that the profit and incentive is towards maintenance drugs versus a cure, but I think you overstate it by a large margin.

Let's see, off the top of my head:

Cheap generic aspirin is recc for some conditions, little profit there.

Vaccines that essentially 'cure' a disease - I bet those iron lungs were expensive and required, more money on that than a single shot.

CPR - I hear all the PSA's about using just your hands to save a life - would be far better for Big Pharma to have a sick person for years require massive care.

Seat belts, air bags, etc - I don't see Big Pharma waging a war against these things.

Laparoscopic surgery - look at how many procedures have become simpler and less expensive. Hey, wouldn't they prefer the more expensive options to make more profit?

I'm sure I could come with dozens of better examples if I took some time. Again, I agree that the profit motivation isn't as aligned with patient needs as well as we would like, but let's not condemn them with a broad brush.

Part of the blame may lie with the FDA - to the extent that they may be overly bureaucratic and ineffective (I don't expect perfection), they are adding to the cost of bringing drugs to market. So only highly profitable drugs can make their way to market.

I also believe the demand for a cancer cure would be so high, that competition for that product would bring it to market. It can be better to have a bigger slice of a smaller pie than a small slice of a big pie. Or to be left with no slice at all, because you didn't go to the party.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 10:46 AM   #83
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
"They'd" keep it in that secret warehouse where "they" have that 100 MPG carburetor and the car that runs on water.

I guess no one in "Big Pharma" or any of those medical researchers have a spouse or child dieing of cancer.
Maybe, but GM discovered ABS in the 1940's, and how long did that TAKE to become mainstream, the 1990's??
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 11:00 AM   #84
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
If someone in Big Pharma invented a cure for cancer, they'd throw it away until they developed something that would keep cancer in check for life, but wouldn't cure it. You'd need to take massively expensive Big Pharma drugs for life to prevent it from spreading.

Cures aren't profitable drugs. They are one-and-done. Notice how all the new medications don't cure anything, but merely manage symptoms and need to be taken for life?
Hmmm.. let's see ... off the top of my head- Polio, Whooping Cough, Tuberculosis, Rubella, Smallpox, Scarlet Fever- all of these are almost "diseases of the past" What about Joint replacements, pacemakers, defibrillators, etc...


How did Viagra ever make it to market? Surely something that game-changing would be locked away in the "top-secret repository o' good stuff", access-restricted to only high-level corporate execs and corrupt government officals...
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 11:27 AM   #85
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Hmmm.. let's see ... off the top of my head- Polio, Whooping Cough, Tuberculosis, Rubella, Smallpox, Scarlet Fever- all of these are almost "diseases of the past"
You are assuming that anything good in health care is a product of Roche? Lilly? Pfizer? if so, you might want to update your "facts."
  • Polio - Salk was at the University of Pittsburgh where his major work was done
  • Whooping Cough - Belgian scientists Jules Bordet and Octave Gengou discovered the bacillus that causes whooping cough in 1906. They developed a vaccine against the disease
  • Tuberculosis - 1912 by a couple of chemistry Ph.D. students in Prague; Domagk, who was the first one who discovered the structure of sulfanilamide, made some compounds that were anti-tubercule and they were used to treat about 7,000 Germans for tuberculosis
  • Smallpox - Jenner, not Roche
  • Scarlet Fever- Fleming, penicillin
  • etc...
But nice try.

Not saying big pharma hasn't contributed, but playing fast and loose with the facts may not be the ideal way to make your point or bolster its credibility.

Just sayin'.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 11:41 AM   #86
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Which false dichotomy is that?

Health care providers have pricing power because the average person isn't going up on WebMD and say that heart bypass isn't needed or should only cost 50%.

That's why health care costs have been going above inflation for decades now.

Oh and yeah, people are forced to pay without insurance coverage, either because coverage is denied or the lifetime cap is exhausted.

Speaking of comparing to other markets, what other business causes the same rate of personal bankruptcies? I would guess nothing comes close but maybe you know of another, since you seem to think health care market is a market just like any other.

Been out of this one.... but I would say CC debt beats out health... even with the new laws...


OK... looked it up... health is #4...

http://www.bankruptcyhome.com/top10reasons.htm
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 11:55 AM   #87
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Hmmm.. let's see ... off the top of my head- Polio, Whooping Cough, Tuberculosis, Rubella, Smallpox, Scarlet Fever- all of these are almost "diseases of the past" What about Joint replacements, pacemakers, defibrillators, etc...


How did Viagra ever make it to market? Surely something that game-changing would be locked away in the "top-secret repository o' good stuff", access-restricted to only high-level corporate execs and corrupt government officals...
For the most part, the eradicated diseases you mentioned were cured decades ago. How many serious conditions have had a *cure* developed in, say, the last 20-30 years?

As for Viagra, it doesn't cure anything, either. if it did, you'd take it once, for a short time, and the chronic condition would no longer be present.

My point is that I think this is a significant part of the rise in health care costs. Not only are many new boutique drugs expensive, but they often have to be taken for life. The drugmakers are in business to make money, and that's fine, but it also comes with the realization that they'd rather develop stuff that creates customers for life instead of one-timers.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 11:58 AM   #88
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
You are assuming that anything good in health care is a product of Roche? Lilly? Pfizer?
Not sure where you made the jump to that assumption, Rich. I know that research occurs at both public and private facilities, but (fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your perspective...) big pharma is best-positioned in terms of infrastructure, capital, and distribution networks to commercialize the discoveries and distribute them to the trade. I shudder to think what would happen if we put the gub'mint in charge of our prescription drugs.. Oh, wait, never mind...
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 12:12 PM   #89
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,423
Seems a big part of Big Pharma's business is in lifestyle drugs -- ED, allergies, managing hypertension, high cholesterol, etc.

You know, all the things they advertise heavily these days, instead of things like cancer.


I thought the AMA somehow tried to limit the number of med school students or in some way try to limit the number of new doctors entering the profession every year?
__________________
explanade is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 12:14 PM   #90
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
I thought the AMA somehow tried to limit the number of med school students or in some way try to limit the number of new doctors entering the profession every year?
I'm pretty sure they do. This is not unique to the medical profession; it's also found in other (mostly) lucrative occupations where the practitioners want to limit the "supply" of people in their trade to keep their labor rates high.

Meddling with the free market takes a lot of different forms.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 03:16 PM   #91
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
I thought the AMA somehow tried to limit the number of med school students or in some way try to limit the number of new doctors entering the profession every year?
They don;t have to anymore, Obamacare took care of that. Now, a newly minted resident simply gets a letter that says: "Congratulations on graduating from medical school, you are now $300,000 in debt, and the most you will ever make is $80,000. Now go see some patients"..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 03:42 PM   #92
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
They don;t have to anymore, Obamacare took care of that. Now, a newly minted resident simply gets a letter that says: "Congratulations on graduating from medical school, you are now $300,000 in debt, and the most you will ever make is $80,000. Now go see some patients"..........
You just had to use the "O-word"- the pig's engraved invitation.
__________________

__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The New Health Care Law, Health Ins & 'New Plans' dex FIRE and Money 14 06-28-2010 07:36 AM
Long-Term Care - Part of Health Care Reform Bill chinaco Health and Early Retirement 3 07-19-2009 03:53 PM
Stimulus bill - COBRA extensions + subsidies A Visitor Health and Early Retirement 78 02-22-2009 07:09 PM
Long-term care subsidies aren't working Nords Health and Early Retirement 18 12-06-2006 10:45 AM
health insurance and effect on increased health care costs Martha Other topics 9 08-08-2006 02:54 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:26 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.