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Old 07-24-2009, 11:13 AM   #41
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There is a way out that is simple but would be very difficult and probably impossible from a political stand point and that is to unwind the federal involvement in health care altogether. It has taken us more that 40 years to get to this crisis situation and it would take a long time to unwind it and that would include a lot of education. But for right now we are going to get socialized medicine with every one involved being micro managed by our centralized government. The ultimate cost is going to be astronomical.
The cost is already astronomical and grows faster than inflation. It's unsustainable as is, without any "socialized" medicine. Of course, you should realize, the Canadian and British system pay less than we do and achieve equivalent results (that's what you mean by "socialized" medicine?).

I'm not sure what you mean by "unwinding" current federal involvement. Are you talking doctor boards? Medicare? Medicaid? Regulation of prescriptions? ER mandate to treat patients? COBRA? Group policies?
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Old 08-01-2009, 12:15 PM   #42
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The cost is already astronomical and grows faster than inflation. It's unsustainable as is, without any "socialized" medicine. Of course, you should realize, the Canadian and British system pay less than we do and achieve equivalent results (that's what you mean by "socialized" medicine?).

I'm not sure what you mean by "unwinding" current federal involvement. Are you talking doctor boards? Medicare? Medicaid? Regulation of prescriptions? ER mandate to treat patients? COBRA? Group policies?
By unwinding I meant all of the above and no longer having the Federal Government being involved in health care. In fact there is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Federal Government the power to mandate health care to or for any one. I understand that we have been educated to believe that we can't take care of ourselves with out Parenting from the Federal Government. That some how we are helpless. Because of that it is almost impossible for us to even think about the concept of not being "managed" in almost all we do by the feds.

It is very very important to remember that societies are very complex. We keep being told that England and Canada have such wonderful medical systems but that is not the entire story. Taken as a whole I don't see a mass exodus of people going from the US to either of those countries even though we all are free to leave the US any time we want. We also know that there are lots of Countries that have Universal health care. Cuba , Vietnam, Mexico, Russia China, etc In fact Hawaii has Universal health care. Now a great deal of that is paid for by tax payers through out the other 49 states through Federal largess ( you and I pay for that part). On the other the system in Hawaii is so expensive that it makes it almost impossible for business to operate there. State income tax is very high etc. We are all free to move there at any time that solves any problems with health care with out voting to put the rest of the nation under that same sytem.

Letting the Federal government take over health care in a nation that has over 300 million people ( no one knows really how many) many are here illegally, many have a LOT more loyalty to their home country and religion than they do to the US and most of whom do not pay any federal income tax is going to cause frightening unintended consequences.

My opinion is that giving your money to the ruling elite in Washington and expecting them to provide the health care you want and need is just as smart as giving a bunch of teen age boys a case of whiskey a kilo of cocaine and then giving them your Porsche and expecting them to successfully drive it from New York to California. Good Luck to us all
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:58 AM   #43
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Taken as a whole I don't see a mass exodus of people going from the US to either of those countries even though we all are free to leave the US any time we want. We also know that there are lots of Countries that have Universal health care. Cuba , Vietnam, Mexico, Russia China, etc In fact Hawaii has Universal health care.
Hawaii doesn't have universal health care.

It's impossible for there to be a "mass exodus" of US citizens emigrating to other industrialized countries. You can't just emigrate to the UK or Sweden. It's also odd to advocate moving to another country so that the US can continue its current, inefficient, health care system.
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:12 PM   #44
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This is a true story. I once had a live in housekeeper from Venezuela. She had five children back in Venezuela living with her family. The father of the children would not marry her. He eventually came to US illegally and looked her up, and got her pregnant again while she was working for me. So now I had a housekeeper without a home and a baby. Then when the child was about 1 yr. old, she got pregnant again and had another baby. (both times by the way going to the hospital to have baby with no insurance)

Then her citizenship came through and her five children were allowed to come to the US. . As soon as her US citizenship came through, the father of her now seven children married her (thus gaining citizenship himself)
It was at this point of course, I had to say NO WAY Jose. So she left with her new husband and did the most sensible thing and got pregnant again. It was a few months after that that her husband left her. (now with eight children)

This may sound crazy, but I know it is happening all the time. There does not seem to be very much personal thought and responsibility in having children by some people. What has this done to the cost of our health insurance? What do we do to fix it?
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:39 PM   #45
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modatter--I know it's not the focus of your post but just one clarification. Your ex-housekeeper can not covey US citizenship to her husband simply by becoming US citizen. She does covey US citizenship to her children under certain circumstances.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:06 PM   #46
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I think your wrong on this. It was my understanding at the time. Also, I had a more recent acquaintance who was illegal, and she went to an attorney who ultimately advised her to marry a US citizen. She paid someone $5,000 to marry her. She had interviews with immagration officials and she was coached by an attorney what they would ask her and how to answer questions and what to say. She also had to do other things like open a joint checking account.

Are you saying that because she became a citizen, but was not a natural citizen (born in US), the law does not apply to her? I just googled this and don't see anything requiring them to be a natural citizen.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:34 PM   #47
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Also, I had a more recent acquaintance who was illegal, and she went to an attorney who ultimately advised her to marry a US citizen. She paid someone $5,000 to marry her. She had interviews with immagration officials and she was coached by an attorney what they would ask her and how to answer questions and what to say. She also had to do other things like open a joint checking account.
That won't get her citizenship. The marriage will allow her to apply for permanent residency status. She can enter under an Immigrant Petition for Alien Relative (I-130), and once here (or if already here) can obtain a K-3 visa (LIFE Act). See INA Section, 8 CFR 214.2(k) 101(a)(15)(K)(ii).

Immigration law appears to be inspired by US health insurance...
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:17 PM   #48
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Read what modhatter posted again. She obtained her citizenship first, as many legal immigrants do. It was after that she got married. Since she was already a citizen, her husband could become one. That was the sequence of events, not that they became married and suddenly were citizens as a result.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:48 PM   #49
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"That won't get her citizenship. The marriage will allow her to apply for permanent residency status. She can enter under an Immigrant Petition for Alien Relative (I-130), and once here (or if already here) can obtain a K-3 visa (LIFE Act). See INA Section, 8 CFR 214.2(k) 101(a)(15)(K)(ii)."

Maybe that is true in the second case I mentioned. I know she was going through a legal process, had an attorney and entered into a phony marriage.

However, the housekeeper was sponsored and attained legal residency and had to wait I think it was five yrs. before she could apply for her citizenship. Looking at the law now, it says she has to be a citizen for three years, before her husband can apply for citizenship. It was a long time ago, but it did not seem like three years. Perhaps the time frame was different then.

This really got off subject, as I was trying to point out the fact that someone with no real means of support wound up here in US with 8 children, no skills other than housekeeping, abandoned by her husband, and because she has no money she can obtains free health care for herself and her children. It is a sad story and yet a dilemma for us.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:08 PM   #50
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This really got off subject, as I was trying to point out the fact that someone with no real means of support wound up here in US with 8 children, no skills other than housekeeping, abandoned by her husband, and because she has no money she can obtains free health care for herself and her children. It is a sad story and yet a dilemma for us.
You don't have to be a foreigner to wind up in that position. There are several local families that have a similar story, ending with a mom and a whole bunch of kids living off of a WIC card, general assistance, and the local food bank.

None of these folks are likely to have bought health insurance, and are probably not paying cash in advance at the clinic or hospital.

In another post "A Modest Proposal" I suggested that we implement a strict Pay As You Go policy to eliminate free use of healthcare facilities. That would address the problem that people have with others getting 'free' health care on their dime, and reduce the surplus population.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:26 PM   #51
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You don't have to be a foreigner to wind up in that position. There are several local families that have a similar story, ending with a mom and a whole bunch of kids living off of a WIC card, general assistance, and the local food bank.

None of these folks are likely to have bought health insurance, and are probably not paying cash in advance at the clinic or hospital.

In another post "A Modest Proposal" I suggested that we implement a strict Pay As You Go policy to eliminate free use of healthcare facilities. That would address the problem that people have with others getting 'free' health care on their dime, and reduce the surplus population.
Yes, that is correct you don't have to be a foreigoner to be in that position. I read "A Modest Proposal". We are caught between a rock and a hard place as far as care for illegals. I twice while traveling outside of my home state needed medical attention (both times with bladder infection) I did not want to go to emergency room so I searced for someplace that would take me as a walk in. Both times I ended up in a doctors office set up to treat what I assumed were mostly illegals. The waiting room was filled with at least 25 or 30 people. I saw them paying after their consultation. One lady before me was counting out $1.00 bills. I think as I recall she paid $18.00. One of these doctors was a freind of a neighbor who I later met at a dinner party at her house.

He told me that he made enough money to live in a comfortable house, though very modest, and was here in the US with the purpose of helping his people with medical attention they could afford. He told me he collected whatever they could afford to pay. if they required something too expensive for them to pay for all at once, they made monthly payments to him. He was a real inspiration.

How many other doctors would be willing to come to the US and set up similar practices. If the government allows them to stay here we have only four options it seems. 1.) Allow the current system to continue. 2) Create a Pay As you Go (not going to with current medical costs) 3. Deny health care (very difficult ) 4. Bring in doctor's from their country willing to set up clinics to care for them on a very reduced rate as the doctor I mentioned. Of course this only addresses Primary Care, not surgery, chemo, and hospitalization and other expensive treatment.

Perhaps our government could agree to pick up part of the tab of medical school for new doctors if they signed an agreement to set up a practice for a given period of time, say at least ten years, running these clinics. They do this in the military.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:31 PM   #52
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I have a question. I didn't know how to reference someone elses post as you all do (when it is highligted in blue) so I read the FAQ and did as it said. However, when you don't want to highlight the whole post - just reference one sentence - how do you do this?
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:40 PM   #53
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I have a question. I didn't know how to reference someone elses post as you all do (when it is highligted in blue) so I read the FAQ and did as it said. However, when you don't want to highlight the whole post - just reference one sentence - how do you do this?
Press the "quote" button and the entire text will appear. You can delete the parts of the text that you do not want to quote. Just do not delete the stuff in the brackets at the beginning and the stuff in the brackets at the end.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:52 PM   #54
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Press the "quote" button and the entire text will appear.
Thank you Martha. Hope this works.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:44 PM   #55
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Thanks Martha I couldn't quite figure that one out. Is it possible to take quoted from more than one post at a time?
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:24 PM   #56
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At the bottom of the posts you want to quote you will see a button that looks like " marks, the next to the last button. Click on that button on each post you want to quote. Then hit the quote button on one of the posts. What will come up quoted language from each of the posts.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:51 PM   #57
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Here is an article regarding out of wedlock births in USA.

Out-of-wedlock births hit record high - CNN.com

"Nearly 40 percent of babies born in the United States in 2007 were delivered by unwed mothers, according to data released last month by the National Center for Health Statistics. The 1.7 million out-of-wedlock births, of 4.3 million total births, marked a more than 25 percent jump from five years before."

Not the 80% Sevo cites for his hospitals, but statistic is staggering to me. My how society has changed!
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:59 PM   #58
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Hawaii doesn't have universal health care.
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Eridanus You are absolutely right, my bad. Hawaii does not have universal health care coverage but they have tried very hard to achieve it. unfortunately the unintended consequence is that they have made it very very hard for businesses to operate there.

Recently Hawaii tried to establish universal insurance coverage for children by instituting a program that would cover any child that was not covered by "free medicaid" and private insurance. It had to be canceled.

To quote CBS
A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.

"People who were already able to afford health care began to stop paying for it so they could get it for free," said Dr. Kenny Fink, the administrator for Med-QUEST at the Department of Human Services. "I don't believe that was the intent of the program."


"It's also odd to advocate moving to another country so that the US can continue its current, inefficient, health care system."

I will be the first to admit that I am a poor communicator. I didn't mean that at all. My point is simply this. We desperately need to change our system to a more efficient humane one and the only way to do that is to go to a more market based system that allows people to make decisions for themselves. We have had more that 40 years now of Centralized planing from Washington. The end result is that we are broke and at a crisis because now the cost of health care has skyrocketed just like every thing else the government gets involved in. Please let's not try more of the same thing.

I also know that I failed my sensitivity classes I certainly do not want to tread on any ones feelings. I want to try to present a few facts and then I will bow out of this discussion.

1. I love this country. I have traveled enough to know that the United States is a unique country and I don't want give up the liberty that this country offers. Liberty entails some risks.

2. Societies are very complex. Every attempt by a Large Powerful Government at centralized planing results in many unintended out comes that are far removed from the original intent. History gives us almost unlimited examples of this. A case in point is the sudden increase in illegitimacy that followed our experiment with medicaid and other free programs that started in the 1960's.

3. As far as health care goes most people only see 2 options.
A) Continue with what we have or
B) Give the Federal Government unlimited power to dictate how we will be taken care of. In fact actually giving the feds control over our physical selves.
There is a 3rd option though I understand that even presenting this idea strikes at lot of peoples firmly held belief that they are helpless with out the intervention from the Federal Government even though they are surrounded by City, County and State governments that they have far far more chance of actually having a voice in. Because of that a lot of people get scared and angry with this suggestion.

C) We can work to limit the power of the Federal Government in the control of any individuals personal life, especially when it comes to things as intimate and personal as who gets a hip replacement and who doesn't. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the Federal Government the right to dictate who will get what kind of health care.

4. By population the United states is the worlds 3rd largest country. And I believe the most ethically diverse country the world has ever seen. From Native Alaskan Indians that live above the Arctic Circle to the last cab driver that I rode with who was brand new in the US from a Somalia Refuge camp. Each and every one of those people are individuals with different idea's about what kind of medical care they want and how they want to spend their health care dollars. To try to mandate a one size fits all 10,000 page formula/ law is nothing less than silly on the humorous side and a national tragedy for the people who's lives are going to ruined by this experiment.



2 India 1,167,830,000



United States 307,183,000


4 Indonesia 229,965,000


5 Brazil 191,723,000


6 Pakistan 167,208,500


7 Bangladesh 162,221,000


8 Nigeria 154,729,000


9 Russia 141,865,000


10 Japan 127,580,000


11 Mexico 107,550,6
5. We are Broke. We are the biggest Debtor nation in the world. We are being publicly lectured by the Chinese about or financial recklessness. We simply can not afford our present experiments in social engineering much less adding more to it.

Thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents worth. I will bow out now and leave any discussions about health care to others. Always remember though when you rob Peter to pay Paul you will ALWAYS have the support of Peter.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:08 PM   #59
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. Always remember though when you rob Peter to pay Paul you will ALWAYS have the support of Peter.
Wow! Peter must be very altruistic.

Ha
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Old 08-19-2009, 07:02 PM   #60
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Wow! Peter must be very altruistic.

Ha

Told you I don't communicate well!!!!

When you rob Peter to pay Paul you can always depend on the support of PAUL!
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