I must have lived in a different world

[Senator]

The last I knew, there are plenty of options for free college. The Military still has ROTC programs. If you are active duty, they pay for your college 100% while you are in.

Once you get out, there are several programs that can be used to pay for it. The GI Bill and other military scholarships.

Of course, there are many scholarships for the low-income, athletically gifted and the smart people.

Are there that many people that want free college, and do not qualify for the military? Or maybe it's just like some people can sacrifice and FIRE, and some do not?

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 Five years, 4 classes a semester equals about $35,000 for a degree, plus books. Living at home, and a job at a fast food restaurant and you should be able to graduate with little or no debt.

Yep, there are many ways to get a degree without going into serious debt.

Grandson #1 graduates from HS in June. He's been taking dual credit courses the past couple of years and will have 30 hours of college credit when he gets his HS diploma. He will live at home for one year and attend a community college, then transfer to a "real" college (his term, not mine) to complete his degree. With part time work he should graduate debt free, even with no scholarship $.

It's doable folks, very doable.

[Big_Hitter]

regarding student loan debt - isn't this something that can't be discharged via bankruptcy?

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter regarding student loan debt - isn't this something that can't be discharged via bankruptcy?

If it is a federally guaranteed student loan, it cannot be discharged with bankruptcy.

If it is a loan from the DOD (Dear Old Dad), it can be...

[Accidental Retiree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic23 I just checked the tuition and fees for Texas State Univ. (Not the University of Texas) This is one of the smaller Texas universities. For four classes tuition and fees run $3,500 a semester. Five years, 4 classes a semester equals about $35,000 for a degree, plus books. Living at home, and a job at a fast food restaurant and you should be able to graduate with little or no debt. A friend of mine's daughter graduates from Sam Houston State in 3.5 years. She applied for just about every scholarship she could think of, lived at home and worked part time. She had money left over in her school account when she graduated. She got a job upon graduation as a school teacher in her home town. Borrowing money, living on campus, or apartment is easy and fun! On the other side, the average college debt is a little over $35,000. Seeing as most will then go out and buy a new car for $20-35K and pay it off in five years, college debt seems a little over blown. However, when I see news reports of kids getting degrees that don't lead to well paying jobs at private or public schools that have large cost, it makes me wonder where there parents are. Congratulations, Class of 2015. You’re the Most Indebted Ever (For Now) - Real Time Economics - WSJ

I worked and attended community college and later state university classes around my job. It took me longer, mainly because I was tired and took time off, but I graduated and went back for an M. A. and graduated with no debt.

The world still needs plumbers and welders and electricians and water/wastewater operators and truck drivers and trash collectors, as well as other skilled workers that I'm not thinking of. Maybe people who get "sold" on college need to pursue other career paths that require other kinds of training that isn't so expensive.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

[Hamlet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo Yep, there are many ways to get a degree without going into serious debt. Grandson #1 graduates from HS in June. He's been taking dual credit courses the past couple of years and will have 30 hours of college credit when he gets his HS diploma. He will live at home for one year and attend a community college, then transfer to a "real" college (his term, not mine) to complete his degree. With part time work he should graduate debt free, even with no scholarship $. It's doable folks, very doable.

Yes, it is doable. It is much harder than it used to be though for most people.

I didn't have to take AP classes, live at home, and go to community college to graduate debt free 25 years ago. All of those (except the AP classes in a lot of areas) were options 25 years ago as well. Your Grandson would have probably graduated with 20k saved (in today's dollars) from his part time work 25 years ago.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that this area of life has actually gotten harder (on average) from when they went through it? Do people really think that all of that increase in college debt in the WSJ link above is going to lattes and craft beer?

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator If it is a federally guaranteed student loan, it cannot be discharged with bankruptcy. If it is a loan from the DOD (Dear Old Dad), it can be...

lol DOD - he just paid tuition, books and gave me $500/mo for room and board. It was still waaay cheaper than Brown

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet I didn't have to take AP classes, live at home, and go to community college to graduate debt free 25 years ago.

me either, except it was 30 years ago

craft beer didn't exist in the 80s, we were lucky to get guiness or harp (and no, Sammy doesn't count as craft beer)

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet Why is it so hard for people to accept that this area of life has actually gotten harder (on average) from when they went through it? Do people really think that all of that increase in college debt in the WSJ link above is going to lattes and craft beer?

I made no claim that it wasn't more difficult, just pointed out there were other options other than going into debt. I find it far more positive to point out ways we can do things rather than focus on how we can't.

[Big_Hitter]

wow, I just went to my alma mater's web page and college is expensive....it costs about $25K a year now, including room and board

[Senator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet Why is it so hard for people to accept that this area of life has actually gotten harder (on average) from when they went through it? Do people really think that all of that increase in college debt in the WSJ link above is going to lattes and craft beer?

It's like the FIRE concept. Everyone says that being retired early is an impossibility these days. Everyone is starving when they retire.

[Hamlet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accidental Retiree I worked and attended community college and later state university classes around my job. It took me longer, mainly because I was tired and took time off, but I graduated and went back for an M. A. and graduated with no debt. The world still needs plumbers and welder and electricians and water/wastewater operators and truck drivers and trash collectors, as well as other skilled workers that I'm not thinking of. Maybe people who get "sold" on college need to pursue other career paths that require other kinds of training that isn't so expensive. Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

How much real growth is in those areas though? Going into the trades is a great option, but only for a few. For the most part, of our job growth is coming in low-wage jobs or jobs that require a college degree or other expensive training. The middle class is shrinking, and for most young people the only way they see into it is a college degree.

The demand for college at these higher prices is there for a reason.

[Hamlet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo I made no claim that it wasn't more difficult, just pointed out there were other options other than going into debt. I find it far more positive to point out ways we can do things rather than focus on how we can't.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to say the world is ending. I'm just trying to point out that these kids aren't whining for no reason. Or at least they aren't whining for no reason any more than we did when we were their age.

[REWahoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet Or at least they aren't whining for no reason any more than we did when we were their age.

+1

I can distinctly recall doing a lot of whining about Uncle Sam wanting me - and not taking no for an answer, short of me leaving the country.

[Hamlet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by REWahoo +1 I can distinctly recall doing a lot of whining about Uncle Sam wanting me - and not taking no for an answer, short of me leaving the country.

There is something that is vastly better for kids these days. Conscription is most likely something they will never face (fingers crossed) . I'd rather have student loans than be forced into fighting a war.

I got to avoid both. In 20 years their kids will be posting snarky memes about me and I'll have the millennials explaining why those kids think I had it easier than them. Of course, they'll be completely wrong.

[samclem]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet The demand for college at these higher prices is there for a reason.

Just like with college costs, we should not just accept that "good jobs require a college degree these days" but ask why that is happening. Employers often freely admit that what these college grads have learned in their 4 (or 5, or 6) years of college is not needed to do the job. The large %age of graduates who are hired for jobs outside their majors is testimony to that. But the glut of young twenty-somethings with these degrees makes it very easy for prospective employers to add it to their criteria simply as a screening mechanism. It costs them nothing, and at least they are more likely to get someone who will stick with something for a few years and is at least marginally literate (things that used to be guaranteed with a HS diploma, but no more). Plus, maybe an employee with $80K in student debt will put up with more BS than an employee without that debt load--that makes for a more "compliant" employee.
If we had less easy money for college and fewer people attending/graduating, these employers would be hiring HS graduates instead, and the new employees could maybe get their higher education as they needed it (and after they'd matured a bit). We can be sure if they were spending their own money, they'd look for good values in education. Not so much when you are 18 and spending Daddy's (or Uncle Sam's) money to get the upgraded dorm room, nicer meal plan, and the classes that are the most fun.

Complaining about the high cost of college and about the "need" for people to have a degree to get a good job misses the underlying factors that cause both of these problems. "Turn off the money spigot!"

[Hamlet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big_Hitter me either, except it was 30 years ago craft beer didn't exist in the 80s, we were lucky to get guiness or harp (and no, Sammy doesn't count as craft beer)

There were a bunch of fancy beers in the 90s. I remember because one of the guys I went to school with got a settlement from a car hitting him, and we figured out that he pretty much spent it all on fancy beer. He would save a bottle from every six pack he bought and put them on a shelf in his room.

We counted them one night and it was a sobering experience, pun intended.

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet There were a bunch of fancy beers in the 90s.

no doubt - Houston got its first microbrewery in the early 90s

[Amethyst]

May I ask why this is important to you? Do you think there is something they are supposed to do about it, if they do understand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamlet I think all I am trying to accomplish is to make the older generation realize that the start of life for this most recent generation is more difficult financially than it has been for a very long time.

For some reason, this thread is making the lyrics to Genesis's 1986 song, "Land of Confusion," run through my head. Thirty years ago, they sang:

"I won't be coming home tonight,
My generation will put it right,
They're not just making promises
That they know they'll never keep."

That was "my generation," and we (with others' help) did more-or-less solve a problem brought on during earlier generations: the Cold War, which is what the song refers to. Whether that simply created a hole for other problems to rush into, is a matter for another debate!

And the song also has this stanza, of which I'm very fond:

"This is the world we live in,
And these are the hands we're given.
Use them and let's start trying
To make it a place worth living in."

I wish everyone the best of luck in "making it a place worth living in."

Amethyst

[DrRoy]

I think that pretty much everything posted in this thread correctly applies to various groups of people.

There are political forces that want the government to have more ability to transfer money from the haves to the have nots.

There are many people who are quite capable of providing for their own retirement and are doing so.

There are some who are capable but handle their money poorly and are not doing so.

There are some who are pretty much spending what they make on living, and do not have the excess income to save. Some of these people could get to a better income through education or finding a better job, but others may just not be capable of that.

It is true that the opportunity to earn a company paid pension is declining as we go forward. The company that I work for capped the pension program in 2007 and the benefit no longer accrues. I will get about 40% of my desired retirement income from it when I tap it next year, but since there is no COLA, after 30 years of typical inflation that will then only be 10%. I will be making up the difference (not counting SS when I am 67-70 if it is still there).