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Old 04-29-2009, 12:54 PM   #61
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I neither have nor want a credit card, so this discussion is mostly irrelevant to me.

I do recall my father explaining interest rates to me when I was a little girl, back in the early 1950's. That included an explanation of what usury was and that usury is illegal. Maybe that was a state regulation of some sort, but complying with usury laws distinguished the criminal loan sharks from reputable loan companies.

Why wouldn't you want free money? Specially someone in your shoes who Im sure caries no debt. "Hey use our card and get free money"
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:56 PM   #62
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Why wouldn't you want free money? Specially someone in your shoes who Im sure caries no debt. "Hey use our card and get free money"
Free money (well, free float at least). $0 fraud liability. Consumer protections in the form of availability of charge backs if the merchant doesn't make things right. Frequently rental car insurance, extended warranty, price protection. Cash back or free stuff. Sign up bonuses. Promotional interest rate deals. For those that pay their bills in full, there are no fees to you. What's not to like?
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:30 PM   #63
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You will have to forgive me.... I am not feeble minded as you believe most people are. I have never been in re-volving debt... nor do I intend to. I am also not responsible for every mistake someone else makes because of their poor judgement. I do not believe that I should be penalized for others mistakes either.

I see it this way. I pay off my credit card every month in full. I incur no debt, nor do I even care what the late charges may be. I pay no monthly fee for my cards, and as it currently sits, I am happy with the arrangement between me and the credit cards companies I use.

Now there are lots of people getting into credit debt problems. So much so that the govt feels the need to step in and regulate the credit card companies for the "common good". Not actually stop the irresponsible behavior of the credit card holders... apparently they are judged not smart enought to change, and are given a "pass" on their actions.

So to recoup some of their lost revenue, the credit card companies now decide to charge yearly fees on their cards. So now... I have to pay a yearly fee, due largely to the irresponsible behavior of other people. Once again... a case of the responsible paying for the irresponsible... and I despise that....
So, you're not really into revolving credit -- you must pay cash for everything and you're probably one of the few here who doesn't have a home equity line or any overdraft protection for your checking account.

I'm not sure I quite follow the rest of the rant, but I do believe no man is an island and no man stands alone. And that we're all interconnected in many ways. So, it's nice to think we should all stand on our own footing -- I wish we all could -- but we all pay for the sins, transgressions, and misdeeds of others, in some fashion or another. Welcome to the world.

From this rant, it appears that you're not really arguing against the intervention of Government here -- just that as a result of that intervention you might pay fees -- well, you don't have to use your credit card for everything -- use cash or a debit card -- stop using the float -- I'm paying for that too!
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:44 PM   #64
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You will have to forgive me.... I am not feeble minded as you believe most people are. I have never been in re-volving debt... nor do I intend to. I am also not responsible for every mistake someone else makes because of their poor judgement. I do not believe that I should be penalized for others mistakes either.

I see it this way. I pay off my credit card every month in full. I incur no debt, nor do I even care what the late charges may be. I pay no monthly fee for my cards, and as it currently sits, I am happy with the arrangement between me and the credit cards companies I use.

Now there are lots of people getting into credit debt problems. So much so that the govt feels the need to step in and regulate the credit card companies for the "common good". Not actually stop the irresponsible behavior of the credit card holders... apparently they are judged not smart enought to change, and are given a "pass" on their actions.

So to recoup some of their lost revenue, the credit card companies now decide to charge yearly fees on their cards. So now... I have to pay a yearly fee, due largely to the irresponsible behavior of other people. Once again... a case of the responsible paying for the irresponsible... and I despise that....
Armor I am afraid you have it backwards. The majority of American carry a credit card balance on a regular basis. There is however a substantial minority, which include you and I along with virtually everybody on this forum (we did a poll) who pay off their cards every month and never run up late fees or finance charges.

Credit card companies have a name for folks like you and I; we are called deadbeats. Now before the coffee or coke escapes your nose at the ridiculousness of the credit card companies calling responsible borrowers deadbeats, look at it from their perspective. We game the system; we take advantage of the float (free money) credit card companies gives us. We collect our frequent flyer miles or cash rebates, and jump at any special promotions for using a card. Some of us even abuse the balance transfer promotions. Since we never pay finance charges or late fees, the only money the CC companies make from us is the transaction fees they charge merchant when we buy stuff.

As a group we are either unprofitable (if we use our cards very rarely) or modestly profitable if we charge a lot. Consequently, the majority of American who do carry credit card balance have to pay higher interest rates, and higher fees to compensate for us deadbeats who are free loading on the system.

As recently as 20 years ago, before charge card evolved into credit cards, you did have to pay an annual fee for the convenience of having a credit card. In fact, I remember having to pay an annual fee for an American Express card right out of college. You were expected to pay the charges each month and they hounded you if you didn't.

Now needless to say the CC companies are largely responsible for their current woes. The gave too large a credit line to way too many people, with little concern about their ability to handle credit. As a industry CC companies gave no thought as to what would happen if we had a recession.

But if you think about it, it is a crazy system. get paid (a rebate) to buy things and borrow money for 45 days or so at no interest. There is a definite convenience factor with having a credit card, and you and I should be charged for this. The CC companies tolerate us smart and/or wealthy folks (i.e. deadbeats) because offering no fee credit cards allows them to hook the highly profitable stupid and/or poor people and get them hooked on credit.

No fee cards with low intro interest rates are similar to the drug dealer who passes out free joints at the Jr. High School. Just because you and I are smart enough to only smoke the free joints and only after our homework is done, doesn't mean we shouldn't try and protect our more foolish classmates. If the end result of all of this regulation is that CC companies start charging annual fees I'll be happy to cut down to one card, because I think society as whole will be better off with a more responsible use of credit.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:18 PM   #65
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No fee cards with low intro interest rates are similar to the drug dealer who passes out free joints at the Jr. High School.
Has this ever happened to anyone or is this merely an urban legend? HFWR?

Has a drug dealer ever given anyone a free joint with the intent to get them hooked as a repeat customer? This may make a good poll question...
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:55 PM   #66
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How would I know...

I graduated from a small town high school in the early 70s. Don't recall anyone handing out free joints, but I did have a couple of friends who had fake IDs, and they - drumroll please - bought beer for us...
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:59 PM   #67
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Armor I am afraid you have it backwards. The majority of American carry a credit card balance on a regular basis. There is however a substantial minority, which include you and I along with virtually everybody on this forum (we did a poll) who pay off their cards every month and never run up late fees or finance charges.

Credit card companies have a name for folks like you and I; we are called deadbeats. Now before the coffee or coke escapes your nose at the ridiculousness of the credit card companies calling responsible borrowers deadbeats, look at it from their perspective. We game the system; we take advantage of the float (free money) credit card companies gives us. We collect our frequent flyer miles or cash rebates, and jump at any special promotions for using a card. Some of us even abuse the balance transfer promotions. Since we never pay finance charges or late fees, the only money the CC companies make from us is the transaction fees they charge merchant when we buy stuff.

As a group we are either unprofitable (if we use our cards very rarely) or modestly profitable if we charge a lot. Consequently, the majority of American who do carry credit card balance have to pay higher interest rates, and higher fees to compensate for us deadbeats who are free loading on the system.

As recently as 20 years ago, before charge card evolved into credit cards, you did have to pay an annual fee for the convenience of having a credit card. In fact, I remember having to pay an annual fee for an American Express card right out of college. You were expected to pay the charges each month and they hounded you if you didn't.

Now needless to say the CC companies are largely responsible for their current woes. The gave too large a credit line to way too many people, with little concern about their ability to handle credit. As a industry CC companies gave no thought as to what would happen if we had a recession.

But if you think about it, it is a crazy system. get paid (a rebate) to buy things and borrow money for 45 days or so at no interest. There is a definite convenience factor with having a credit card, and you and I should be charged for this. The CC companies tolerate us smart and/or wealthy folks (i.e. deadbeats) because offering no fee credit cards allows them to hook the highly profitable stupid and/or poor people and get them hooked on credit.

No fee cards with low intro interest rates are similar to the drug dealer who passes out free joints at the Jr. High School. Just because you and I are smart enough to only smoke the free joints and only after our homework is done, doesn't mean we shouldn't try and protect our more foolish classmates. If the end result of all of this regulation is that CC companies start charging annual fees I'll be happy to cut down to one card, because I think society as whole will be better off with a more responsible use of credit.
Thanks clifp, that was a very coherant and well thought out answer. I have to admit... I think you are right. I keep forgetting the simple inescapable fact, that I truly just do not think like "most" people do. I guess I do not expect something for nothing... so I never seek it. In my financial dealings I always have that small fear in the back of my mind that if I should fail... there is NO ONE... that will come to save me. I think it is that fear that stops me from doing foolish financial things in the first place, and gives me pause before I embark on something new. I always thought people called that sort of thinking "responsibility", maybe in the world we live now, those rules no longer apply.

For myself anyway, if a credit card company or anyone else ever offered me something just too good to be true, I would probably not accept as a reflex action... just because I could not see where the downside is... and I have learned by now there is ALWAYS a downside to consider.

Something about... "If you are sitting at a poker table and cannot spot the sucker in 5 minutes.... then the sucker is probably YOU"....
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:43 AM   #68
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I shed not one tear for their plight. Offering unsecured lines of credit means you need to factor in what default rate they can reasonable expect. When I hear those companies crying because their default rate rose from around 4% to 6%, big whoop. I think their business model is screwed up if 94% of their customers pay, yet they still complain......
My point is that the consequences of the government actions need to be understood by those supporting them. There's no free lunch here. The credit card companies will react to tightened restrictions by offering credit to fewer people at worse initial terms. We can't squeeze blood from a rock. And with their current financial performance, the credit card companies are falling like rocks.
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:54 AM   #69
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Just because you and I are smart enough to only smoke the free joints and only after our homework is done, doesn't mean we shouldn't try and protect our more foolish classmates. If the end result of all of this regulation is that CC companies start charging annual fees I'll be happy to cut down to one card, because I think society as whole will be better off with a more responsible use of credit.
I agree. I have a few more modest proposals to save our weaker brethren from themselves. I'd like to see government step in and prevent automobiles on our highways, since automobile accidents are a leading cause of death. Surely you agree that saving even one life would be worth it. We should be happy to pay for this life-saving policy by exclusively using public transportation, bikes, and skateboards. Such a policy would also lower pollution, a win-win!

I'd also like to return to alcohol prohibition, since alcohol has been shown to be a major cause of breaking up families. Without alcohol in our bars, no one would drink, and we'd all be better off. Speaking of which, we should ban guns. Without guns, we'd all be safer! Lastly, I'd like to require education for everyone through graduate school, since those who attend grad school have high average salaries. Just think of the benefits to our children! We'd be globally competitive, our kids would be off the streets, and we'd have more jobs for heads-of-households without the 20-somethings stealing them.

These are tough decisions, but if we care about our fellow citizens, we have to make the right choices. The above proposals would increase life-spans, lower pollution, lower divorce rates, decrease guns, increase education, and lower unemployment. Here's to a stronger economy!
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Old 04-30-2009, 04:33 PM   #70
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I agree. I have a few more modest proposals to save our weaker brethren from themselves. I'd like to see government step in and prevent automobiles on our highways, since automobile accidents are a leading cause of death. Surely you agree that saving even one life would be worth it. We should be happy to pay for this life-saving policy by exclusively using public transportation, bikes, and skateboards. Such a policy would also lower pollution, a win-win!

. Here's to a stronger economy!
Some truly excellent proposals here, if you lose your day job, you have a promising future as a satirist. Speaking of the economy, I am thinking of distributing the swine flu as means of improving it. Everyone who dies of the flu reduces the unemployment rates (cause they were either unemployed or there job now needs filling) if they don't die they, the illness increases the demand for medical personally, and helps boost the sales of drug companies.

I assume the Abreutime utopia of limited government, would encourage such an entrepreneurial initiative, and certainly wouldn't create any pesky government regulations to prevent it. Right?
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:49 PM   #71
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Some truly excellent proposals here, if you lose your day job, you have a promising future as a satirist. Speaking of the economy, I am thinking of distributing the swine flu as means of improving it. Everyone who dies of the flu reduces the unemployment rates (cause they were either unemployed or there job now needs filling) if they don't die they, the illness increases the demand for medical personally, and helps boost the sales of drug companies.

I assume the Abreutime utopia of limited government, would encourage such an entrepreneurial initiative, and certainly wouldn't create any pesky government regulations to prevent it. Right?
Actually VP Biden has already spoken on the record and in his official capacity encouraging us to prevent the distribution of the swine flu virus by not gathering in enclosed places such as airplanes, offices, schools, etc. So, sorry, the feds are already coming down on your distribution scheme.
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Old 05-01-2009, 01:24 PM   #72
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Actually VP Biden has already spoken on the record and in his official capacity encouraging us to prevent the distribution of the swine flu virus by not gathering in enclosed places such as airplanes, offices, schools, etc. So, sorry, the feds are already coming down on your distribution scheme.
Joe Biden makes Dan Quayle look smart.........
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:40 PM   #73
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All of these provisions to make CC companies toe the line takes all of the fun out of paying off the balance monthly and beating them at their own game.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:09 AM   #74
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Some truly excellent proposals here, if you lose your day job, you have a promising future as a satirist. Speaking of the economy, I am thinking of distributing the swine flu as means of improving it. Everyone who dies of the flu reduces the unemployment rates (cause they were either unemployed or there job now needs filling) if they don't die they, the illness increases the demand for medical personally, and helps boost the sales of drug companies.

I assume the Abreutime utopia of limited government, would encourage such an entrepreneurial initiative, and certainly wouldn't create any pesky government regulations to prevent it. Right?
That's a great attitude, a fighting attitude. Americans have never backed down from a challenge before, and we're not going to let a weak pig flu take us down. We're no sissies. We need to face swine flu head on, by applying it directly to our forehead. Simply staying indoors, limiting the spread of the disease, is for wussies. Americans are not wussies. It will be our American ingenuity, cowboy attitude, and small business entrepreneurship that develops a cure. If you're a true patriot, and believe in the power of the American people, you'll contract swine flu to help provide the proper incentives for the creation of a cure.

God Bless America, and may swine flu infect us all.
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Old 05-04-2009, 10:20 AM   #75
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That's a great attitude, a fighting attitude. Americans have never backed down from a challenge before, and we're not going to let a weak pig flu take us down. We're no sissies. We need to face swine flu head on, by applying it directly to our forehead. Simply staying indoors, limiting the spread of the disease, is for wussies. Americans are not wussies. It will be our American ingenuity, cowboy attitude, and small business entrepreneurship that develops a cure. If you're a true patriot, and believe in the power of the American people, you'll contract swine flu to help provide the proper incentives for the creation of a cure.

God Bless America, and may swine flu infect us all.
Uh ok..........
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