Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-14-2011, 07:55 PM   #181
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
I am quoting myself so as not to pick out one of the responses above. If Wisconsin has a $3.6B deficit it's trying to deal with, why would you replace any teachers who leave? Do you think a business running at a huge loss would not take advantage of attrition to cut costs whenever they present themselves?

Before laying off anyone, or reducing anyone's wages & benefits, you first restructure your remaining workforce to reduce costs through natural attrition. It's the least painful way to reduce costs. This case is about an elementary school, so you eliminate 1 class at each grade level (1 thru 6 presumably) and increase class size on all the remaining classes. ...

Because the Union will sue you if you try it?

Teachers union sues CPS over increased class size

edit/add: businesses made all sort of decisions that would appear to be non-rational, but they did it because of the power of the unions. GM/UAW?

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-14-2011, 08:24 PM   #182
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Because the Union will sue you if you try it?

Teachers union sues CPS over increased class size
And, despite the conventional wisdom, class size is only very poorly correlated with scholastic achievement.

Example: Hoxby OU thesis (there are many others)
__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:18 PM   #183
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Because the Union will sue you if you try it?

Teachers union sues CPS over increased class size

-ERD50
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
And, despite the conventional wisdom, class size is only very poorly correlated with scholastic achievement.

Example: Hoxby OU thesis (there are many others)
I have two volunteers to teach classes of sixty elementary students.
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:24 PM   #184
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette View Post
Wow. Do you think he'll drop his membership in the Wisconsin Governor's Union Local #1? Might save on some dues that way...
Possibly, since his dues won't come out of his check anymore...
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 08:49 AM   #185
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
I have two volunteers to teach classes of sixty elementary students.
I hope you are joking. When I taught I had 60 or so a few times when I taught PE,and that was workable, but not great. But sixty in an elementary classroom (or high school)? That would be insane! I never was at a school that had classrooms that could hold even 45. While the research exists that class size isnt a strong correlation to learning, I bet this was compared to sizes of 15 versus 30, not SIXTY!
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:04 AM   #186
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
I have two volunteers to teach classes of sixty elementary students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I hope you are joking.
I wasn't sure what the point was, or what the " " was supposed to convey. I hesitate to respond, since I don't get the comment.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:24 AM   #187
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I wasn't sure what the point was, or what the " " was supposed to convey. I hesitate to respond, since I don't get the comment.

-ERD50
My only point was I would find it impossible to provide an adequate education to a class of elem. students that had 60 students in the classroom.
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:30 AM   #188
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
My only point was I would find it impossible to provide an adequate education to a class of elem. students that had 60 students in the classroom.
Probably so, but what's the "magic number" here? When I was in elementary school (1970-77), we usually averaged around 30 pupils, sometimes as low as around 25 or 26 and sometimes as high as about 33-34. A lot of focus today is on keeping class sizes in the low 20s. We need to pay 50% more teachers in the classroom with 20 students per room than with 30 per room. I'm not convinced that's made education that much better in terms of student outcomes, though it's certainly less homework to grade and fewer parents to deal with. I'd have to think there are better ways to spend the amount of money it takes to hire 50% more teachers than to reduce class sizes by a third.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:38 AM   #189
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
My only point was I would find it impossible to provide an adequate education to a class of elem. students that had 60 students in the classroom.
I understand that - I'm just not sure where/why HFWR pulled that 60 number from. Or what me and/or samclem teaching has to do with it. Again, maybe the " " thing conveyed something I didn't follow.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Old 03-15-2011, 09:46 AM   #190
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Probably so, but what's the "magic number" here? When I was in elementary school (1970-77), we usually averaged around 30 pupils, sometimes as low as around 25 or 26 and sometimes as high as about 33-34. A lot of focus today is on keeping class sizes in the low 20s. We need to pay 50% more teachers in the classroom with 20 students per room than with 30 per room. I'm not convinced that's made education better in terms of student outcomes, though it's certainly less homework to grade and fewer parents to deal with.
Me personally, I think the magic number varies. For example, with well motivated, well behaved students you can teach 40 students in an honors class pretty easy. Trying to do that with first graders would be very tough. I remember being in classes with 32 or so in junior high when I was a student. But the threat of a good paddling kept us in line. As far as speaking in generalities I believe those class sizes of 15-20 are not efficient use of tax dollars.
Most teachers are good hard wokers, but occassionally I would get some crying cause they might have 28-30 in a class a few hours. When they complained to me I just said "Did you know teachers in Las Vegas have 35-40. Would you rather have that?" They'd leave me alone after that.
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 03:41 PM   #191
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I understand that - I'm just not sure where/why HFWR pulled that 60 number from. Or what me and/or samclem teaching has to do with it. Again, maybe the " " thing conveyed something I didn't follow.

-ERD50
Well, at least one member (besides me) saw some humor in that. Lots of talk of overpaid, obstinate teachers/unions, and classroom size not correlated with achievement, so I thought that sounded so good that you guys might want to volunteer for a super-sized, market-determined salaried, teaching position...

Just tugging your leash. No reason to get thongs in a bunch.
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:30 PM   #192
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I hope you are joking. When I taught I had 60 or so a few times when I taught PE,and that was workable, but not great. But sixty in an elementary classroom (or high school)? That would be insane! I never was at a school that had classrooms that could hold even 45. While the research exists that class size isnt a strong correlation to learning, I bet this was compared to sizes of 15 versus 30, not SIXTY!
I got all the way through grade school never seeing a class smaller than about 55. My first grade class was 70. Nevertheless not long ago I went to a reunion, and close to everyone had done very well in life, most as old line professionals- lawyers, a judge, several doctors, etc.

Mostly we didn't spend any time on soft things. We learned to read, write, spell, do arithmetic, be loyal to our friends, and try to stay out of trouble. Because trouble was always doubled or more.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 05:49 PM   #193
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I got all the way through grade school never seeing a class smaller than about 55. My first grade class was 70. Nevertheless not long ago I went to a reunion, and close to everyone had done very well in life, most as old line professionals- lawyers, a judge, several doctors, etc.

Mostly we didn't spend any time on soft things. We learned to read, write, spell, do arithmetic, be loyal to our friends, and try to stay out of trouble. Because trouble was always doubled or more.

Ha
My land! How big was the classroom? I taught at 7 different schools and been in many more, and I dont know if I have ever seen a classroom (outside of gym and band room) that could hold that many bodies in it. I guess you could get a reasonable amount of learning done in a class of 60 with the teacher teaching, and a teachers aide walking around with a "Board of Education" monitoring student attentiveness
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:03 PM   #194
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
Reducing class size is just one way to use available resources, and I'm not sure it is the best way to go.

If we can evaluate teachers effectively and keep/promote the best ones, then it will be important to compensate them well. I'd bet that we'd get better results paying two top-notch teachers $90K each (incl benefits) and having them teach classes of 30 kids each than leaving the present system in place and paying three "meets-standards-and-have-seniority" teachers $60K to teach classes of 20 kids each.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:25 PM   #195
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Reducing class size is just one way to use available resources, and I'm not sure it is the best way to go.

If we can evaluate teachers effectively and keep/promote the best ones, then it will be important to compensate them well. I'd bet that we'd get better results paying two top-notch teachers $90K each (incl benefits) and having them teach classes of 30 kids each than leaving the present system in place and paying three "meets-standards-and-have-seniority" teachers $60K to teach classes of 20 kids each.
I find no fault in your reasoning, Samclem. As a parent I would much rather have my student in the larger class with an excellent teacher, than a small class with a mediocre teacher.
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:40 PM   #196
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
My land! How big was the classroom? I taught at 7 different schools and been in many more, and I dont know if I have ever seen a classroom (outside of gym and band room) that could hold that many bodies in it. I guess you could get a reasonable amount of learning done in a class of 60 with the teacher teaching, and a teachers aide walking around with a "Board of Education" monitoring student attentiveness
Nah; just one old nun with a huge stick who was motivated by the love of God and an abiding distaste for human males. As to how big the room was, it looked pretty small to my adult eyes. Anyway, it worked. When any of us went to public high schools with much smaller classes, we generally left the incumbents in the dirt. If you get hit when you make a mistake, you try just a little harder.

I have a story from that first grade class that has been a lifelong lesson for me. We had some Dick and Jane reader. Jane carried a teddy Bear. They were looking at an excavation site where a big power shovel was working, and Jane dropped her Teddy Bear into the pit. We were all concerned about it, so the teacher asked, "Can the shovel see Teddy?"One after another we answered, yes, it is right there in the clear, it sees it. Finally she got around to some farm kid who had always seemed pretty slow in our hypercompetitive world. I think his name was Martin. So she says, Martin, does the shovel see the Teddy Bear? Martin confidently said "No, it can't see anything, it doesn't have eyes!" His tone implied that we must have all been crazy not to realize this basic fact of nature.

So after that I tried to pay closer attention to everything in the field, instead of jumping at conclusions in my overeagerness to get the answer first.

Martin was pretty much my first grade hero.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:47 PM   #197
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Nah; just one old nun with a huge stick who was motivated by the love of God and an abiding distaste for human males.
Same here. 58 in our grade during the mid-50's in elementary school. I believe that the nuns we had could probably cover twice that amount, if the room would have been big enough (desks were pushed together - no isles except on one side of the room)...
__________________
rescueme is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:48 PM   #198
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Nah; just one old nun with a huge stick who was motivated by the love of God and an abiding distaste for human males. As to how big the room was, it looked pretty small to my adult eyes. Anyway, it worked. When any of us went to public high schools with much smaller classes, we generally left the incumbents in the dirt. If you get hit when you make a mistake, you try just a little harder.

I have a story from that first grade class that has been a lifelong lesson for me. We had some Dick and Jane reader. Jane carried a teddy Bear. They were looking at an excavation site where a big power shovel was working, and Jane dropped her Teddy Bear into the pit. We were all concerned about it, so the teacher asked, "Can the shovel see Teddy?"One after another we answered, yes, it is right there in the clear, it sees it. Finally she got around to some farm kid who had always seemed pretty slow in our hypercompetitive world. I think his name was Martin. So she says, Martin, does the shovel see the Teddy Bear? Martin confidently said "No, it can't see anything, it doesn't have eyes!" His tone implied that we must have all been crazy not to realize this basic fact of nature.

So after that I tried to pay closer attention to everything in the field, instead of jumping at conclusions in my overeagerness to get the answer first.

Martin was pretty much my first grade hero.

Ha
Good stuff! I enjoyed reading it!
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 07:54 PM   #199
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
Good stuff! I enjoyed reading it!
If you want to read about the "antics" in a 50's classroom run by nuns, you could read "A Bold Fresh Piece of Humanity" by Bill O'Reilly. It contains several stores about those days, and those (non-union ) teachers...
__________________
rescueme is offline  
Old 03-15-2011, 08:11 PM   #200
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,372
Also a Catholic school alum for grades 1 through 5--all classes had 60 kids in them, you could hear a pin drop at any moment, and I don't remember any nun ever having to discipline anyone. Started sixth grad in a public school in fall of 1961 when we moved, maybe 30 kids, bored out of my skull.

But times change.
__________________

__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Living in Interesting Times RonBoyd FIRE and Money 28 03-08-2009 03:16 PM
Retiring to Minnesota or Wisconsin??? Reader Lou Other topics 29 07-25-2008 09:45 AM
One year to go in Wisconsin Razor Hi, I am... 14 09-28-2007 01:33 PM
Retiring in Wisconsin german300 Life after FIRE 24 08-16-2005 04:03 PM
Interesting article in New York Times Traveler Other topics 17 05-19-2004 05:21 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:49 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.