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Old 04-04-2011, 11:33 PM   #261
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Not at all, you just seem to be making blanket statements without any facts to back them up...........what does "yea, for the good side" mean, in your opinion?
I don't want to be ingratious by not answering your question, but I just can't think of a way that facts could favor or disfavor "yea". "Yea" is not the sort of thing that could be backed up or impeached by facts. What are you asking me?
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:57 AM   #262
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What are you asking me?
1) What makes one side 'good'?

2) We can disagree on what is 'good', but shouldn't the democratic process be upheld whether we individually agree with the result or not?

3) Why is it cause for celebration if they get their way through subverting the political process (at least in spirit, as you agreed regarding the reps actively leaving the State to avoid a quorum)?

edit/add after reading FinanceDude's post: 4) Why are you being so obtuse?

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Old 04-05-2011, 09:00 AM   #263
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I don't want to be ingratious by not answering your question, but I just can't think of a way that facts could favor or disfavor "yea". "Yea" is not the sort of thing that could be backed up or impeached by facts. What are you asking me?
NM............it is onvious you don't want to answer the question, that is your right........
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:10 AM   #264
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Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.

Don't expect the sheep to happily go along with the results of the vote.


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2) We can disagree on what is 'good', but shouldn't the democratic process be upheld whether we individually agree with the result or not?
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:26 AM   #265
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Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.

Don't expect the sheep to happily go along with the results of the vote.
What really happened showcases the "expectations" and how they differ between the two parties in Wisconsin. 14 Democratic senators fled the state to avoid taking a vote on legislation they didn't like. Were they villifed or held in contempt and punished? No! They returned to a heroes welcome and dinner with the union bosses. Of course, if the Republicans would have pulled that stunt when Dem Governor Jim Doyle rammed through $1 billion in new taxes on Wisconsinites at 3:00 am at one of his late night sessions, they would have been censored, reviled, fined, and prosecuted. And yet we wonder why they "just can't get along"...........

Wisconsin is yet another example of the double standard in play. "Mean, rich Republicans" are ruining the state the Democrats have "tried so hard" to make Cornucopeia, give me a break!!
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:31 AM   #266
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Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.

Don't expect the sheep to happily go along with the results of the vote.
Certainly some will be unhappy with the results of the vote. I often am. But that doesn't give me the 'right' to usurp the process.

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:10 AM   #267
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1) What makes one side 'good'?
As I said earlier in this thread, I disapprove of Walker's union busting -- trying to change the law to limit public workers' bargaining rights. That makes his the bad side, and the other side, the one with which I sympathize. I hope Walker's side loses.

Describing the Democrat senators' cute little prank as "subverting the democratic process" is overblown.
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:17 AM   #268
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The key is that the minority has to be able to live with the result.

A sizable minority of the people of Wisconsin (including my family members), believe that this change will make their lives untenable. It essentially amounts to the end of unions in any meaningful sense, and a steady drop in the compensation of any unionized worker. Any time the budget has trouble in the future, the politicians will just balance it on the backs of government workers, who will be left with no recourse but finding other employment (which I expect all of the better employees to start doing as quickly as they are able).

If the majority pushes a minority hard enough, the minority will always at some point decide that democracy is no longer serving their interests.

That is what happened with the civil rights movement. The majority was happy with the system, but the black population showed them that they were not going to let it continue. They brought the system to a standstill and the majority came around to their way of thinking

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Certainly some will be unhappy with the results of the vote. I often am. But that doesn't give me the 'right' to usurp the process.

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Old 04-05-2011, 11:33 AM   #269
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As I said earlier in this thread, I disapprove of Walker's union busting -- trying to change the law to limit public workers' bargaining rights. That makes his the bad side, and the other side, the one with which I sympathize. I hope Walker's side loses.
Federal government workers generally do not have collective bargaining rights. Seems to me I don't see them boycotting business, protesting, nor joining the state workers in protests. A number of states have taken steps to imit and/or remove collective bargaining on things other than pay. Its not like Wisconsin is doing something noone else has ever done.

Under Walker's bill, the local govt would have the right to negotiate and enter into contracts that are even better than the ones currently enjoyed. The main reason the unions are fighting this bill is NOT the worker's rights, its the part of the bill where unions would not be able to payroll deduct union dues. They are fearful that many of their members would NOT write that check for $500 to $1000 every year, and the union's power would erode. That is the real issue, power, NOT worker's rights. Go look at some Youtube videos of the president of the NEA and Mr. Trumka, and see how much they care about their members.........

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Describing the Democrat senators' cute little prank as "subverting the democratic process" is overblown.
Interesting, avoiding taking a vote on legislation because you are afraid it might pass? How is that representing your constituents? I guess in your world its also ok for Republican state senators to receive death threats and be sworn at and threatened by other Democratic lawmakers? Those are "cute little pranks" too?
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:37 AM   #270
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Any raise above inflation would need voter approval. That's going to make it pretty much unworkable.

Imagine if a company had to get shareholder approval to give anyone a raise higher than the inflation rate. How do you think that would affect the viability of those companies?

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Under Walker's bill, the local govt would have the right to negotiate and enter into contracts that are even better than the ones currently enjoyed. The main reason the unions are fighting this bill is NOT the worker's rights, its the part of the bill where unions would not be able to payroll deduct union dues. They are fearful that many of their members would NOT write that check for $500 to $1000 every year, and the union's power would erode. That is the real issue, power, NOT worker's rights. Go look at some Youtube videos of the president of the NEA and Mr. Trumka, and see how much they care about their members.........
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:38 AM   #271
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That is what happened with the civil rights movement. The majority was happy with the system, but the black population showed them that they were not going to let it continue. They brought the system to a standstill and the majority came around to their way of thinking
Comparing the civil rights movement to the political battle in Wisconsin is so far a reach that Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave right now.........

Recall that states were NOT given the power to allow unions to organize under the original federal law passed. It was left up to individual states to draft legislation to either allow unionization and collective bargaining or not. Wisconsin enacted such legislation in 1959. Like ALL state laws, however, they can be changed by the legislature of the state. I see articles all the time comparing collective bargaining rights to rights like the right to vote or the right to free speech or the right to bear arms, or civil rights. Collective bargaining is not a "right" all citizens enjoy. IMHO that makes it a privilege, not a right......YMMV..........
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:45 AM   #272
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Any raise above inflation would need voter approval. That's going to make it pretty much unworkable.
So, in your opinion, the ONLY people that should have to carry the burden is the private sector? Our local teachers union is upset because the teachers "only got" 3% and 4% increases the past two years. I wonder why my property taxes went up 13% in the past 2 years, I am sure it had "nothing to do" with giving increases to teachers while we are in a recession..........

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Imagine if a company had to get shareholder approval to give anyone a raise higher than the inflation rate. How do you think that would affect the viability of those companies?
Well, in the case of the car companies we all bailed out, I don't agree with that at all. No bonuses until GM and others pay us back! However, let's look at a normal company like Proctor and Gamble. Are they funded by taxpayer dollars?
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:49 AM   #273
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My point was that the minority's recourse in our society against a tyranny of the majority is civil disruption.

The majority cannot stomp on a decent sized minority with impunity.

At a certain point, the minority decides to play "I may lose, but you won't win."

I think the majority has pushed a fairly large group of people to that point in Wisconsin.

However, I'm doubtful that they will remain the majority for much longer.

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Comparing the civil rights movement to the political battle in Wisconsin is so far a reach that Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave right now.........

Recall that states were NOT given the power to allow unions to organize under the original federal law passed. It was left up to individual states to draft legislation to either allow unionization and collective bargaining or not. Wisconsin enacted such legislation in 1959. Like ALL state laws, however, they can be changed by the legislature of the state. I see articles all the time comparing collective bargaining rights to rights like the right to vote or the right to free speech or the right to bear arms, or civil rights. Collective bargaining is not a "right" all citizens enjoy. IMHO that makes it a privilege, not a right......YMMV..........
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:55 AM   #274
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They are funded by shareholder dollars. Shouldn't the shareholders required to vote for any increases?

Except that that would be completely unworkable. The shareholders have no idea whether the employees are reasonably paid or not. Just like voters would have no idea whether government employees should get a raise or not.

There is a reason we are a representative democracy and not a direct democracy.


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Well, in the case of the car companies we all bailed out, I don't agree with that at all. No bonuses until GM and others pay us back! However, let's look at a normal company like Proctor and Gamble. Are they funded by taxpayer dollars?
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:13 PM   #275
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Any time the budget has trouble in the future, the politicians will just balance it on the backs of government workers, who will be left with no recourse but finding other employment
You mean, just like the rest of us?

Boo hoo. Welcome to capitalism. Hope they enjoyed the ride while it lasted, but from here on out, they're going to have to (gasp!) earn their keep.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:17 PM   #276
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Imagine if a company had to get shareholder approval to give anyone a raise higher than the inflation rate. How do you think that would affect the viability of those companies?
If I don't like the way a company is being run, I can simply sell my shares and liquidate my interest in the company.

Who do I contact to opt-out of paying taxes if I don't like the way my tax dollars are being spent?

As long as we're forced to pay taxes, that gives taxpayers a say in how that money is spent. Thus, your analogy is not apt.
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:22 PM   #277
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The shareholders have no idea whether the employees are reasonably paid or not. Just like voters would have no idea whether government employees should get a raise or not.
Well, when those raises are awarded blindly, with no performance evaluation requirement, in a time of recession, the perception is that the majority of those raises are not warranted, and are in fact simply being awarded to appease an overly-powerful union that is extorting the public purse.

Furthermore, in many cases taxpayers do have some idea of whether or not public employees are overpaid, because the budgets are often required to be publicly disclosed. I can easily see exactly what a Level-2 DBMS admin earns in a particular government branch, and compare that to private-sector salaries with a comparable job description (making sure I factor in the generous defined-benefit pension, medical, sick leave, parental leave, and vacation entitlements).
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:31 PM   #278
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My point was that the minority's recourse in our society against a tyranny of the majority is civil disruption.

The majority cannot stomp on a decent sized minority with impunity.

At a certain point, the minority decides to play "I may lose, but you won't win."

I think the majority has pushed a fairly large group of people to that point in Wisconsin.

However, I'm doubtful that they will remain the majority for much longer.
Really? Only 7 PERCENT of all jobs in Wisconsin are held by state unionized workers, which means 93% are not. The voters in November sent a clear message, reversing a Democratic majority in both houses to a Republican majority in both houses. 50,000 or 80,000 people protesting at the State Capitol makes for great TV, but there are 4 million+ workers in the state.

Can you define the "fairly large group" of people you speak of? I don't see anyone against the bill except retired and working union members, and some students skipping out of class. 300,000 out of 4,000,000 is not that large of a number.......
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:36 PM   #279
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They are funded by shareholder dollars. Shouldn't the shareholders required to vote for any increases?
No, because the shareholders made a CHOICE to own that company. What CHOICE did I have to pay for collective bargaining that is bankrupting local govts? In Wisconsin, under Walker's bill, law enforcement and firefighters are exempt, yet I see tons of ads slamming the bill from folks in law enforcement and firefighters, that seems weird to me........
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Old 04-05-2011, 12:38 PM   #280
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Describing the Democrat senators' cute little prank as "subverting the democratic process" is overblown.
I guess we will have to disagree on that (though I thought you agreed when you said it violated the 'spirit' of requiring a quorum). Isn't voting on bills that are brought up "the democratic process"? I'm quite certain that the quorum requirement was never intended to be used this way as part of" the democratic process", so I'll call it "subverting" the process. It may be technically legal, but it strikes me as "the ends justify the means", and that shouldn't be how democracy works, IMO.

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As I said earlier in this thread, I disapprove of Walker's union busting -- trying to change the law to limit public workers' bargaining rights. That makes his the bad side, and the other side, the one with which I sympathize. I hope Walker's side loses.
And I suppose some people disapproved when public workers' bargaining rights were expanded in 1959 by a vote in the WI State Congress? Is it categorically good/bad, or just a law that was passed by people who thought it was the right thing at that time? Can't that change with time and conditions? I also think it's a stretch to call these 'rights'. It's simply a law that defines what can and cannot be done. If a length of road has a speed limit of 35mph, then they pass a law to change it to 45, then later set it back to 35 - can I claim I have "the right" to drive 45mph there? No.



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That is what happened with the civil rights movement. The majority was happy with the system, but the black population showed them that they were not going to let it continue. They brought the system to a standstill and the majority came around to their way of thinking
I'll disagree (somewhat) with your assessment. We (finally) reached a point where the majority did not want to see a minority treated unfairly. The Civil Rights Act was passed by our Representatives, so (in theory) it represents the will of the majority of the people.

I'd agree that the demonstrators helped to bring the issue up to the forefront. But that is largely an issue of free speech, and that is great (w/o digging into the history, I suppose the strikes were more than just free speech, but I'm speaking generally here).

I can think of many, many examples of laws that protect a (numerical) minority - yet I fully support it even if I am not of that minority. Laws that protect (numerical) minorities are what help us to have an orderly system.

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Any raise above inflation would need voter approval. That's going to make it pretty much unworkable. ...

A sizable minority of the people of Wisconsin (including my family members), believe that this change will make their lives untenable.
Now this really strikes me as overblown. How can this be "untenable", when the majority of workers in the US do not have collective bargaining? When/if we can't get qualified people to fill the jobs, people will vote for increases. Don't tell me it can't happen, we often pass referendums here to approve higher expenditures - when those expenses represent the will of the people.


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...government workers, who will be left with no recourse but finding other employment (which I expect all of the better employees to start doing as quickly as they are able).
Again, the option of finding other employment is exactly what most of us taxpayers have had to deal with. Why should public employees be immune from this? I don't get it?

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If the majority pushes a minority hard enough, the minority will always at some point decide that democracy is no longer serving their interests.
Absolutely. However, it sure is tough to apply it to this group who have had raises, job security, and pensions that are mostly far better than the majority. Just how 'hard' has this group been pushed

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