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Old 02-23-2011, 02:40 PM   #21
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Let's see: put up with a class full of brats, and their equally bratty parents; grade 40 or 80 or 120 tests, at night, at home, on my own time; buy class materials, with my own money; compete for the attention of kids inundated with TV, internet, video games, sext messages, sports, celebrities...

Dang, where do I sign? Sounds like such a deal...
It was different 20-30 years ago, when the teachers were in charge. Now if Little Johnny or Little Susie gets reprimanded, Daddy and Mommy hire a big shot lawyer to sue the school............
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:55 PM   #22
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It was different 20-30 years ago, when the teachers were in charge. Now if Little Johnny or Little Susie gets reprimanded, Daddy and Mommy hire a big shot lawyer to sue the school............
Now, I'm not a beat'em in to submission guy, but removing the paddle really impacted discipline, I believe (Its not a cure all, I know). 15 years ago I was at a school that still paddled, and usually only the threat of it was good enough and things went smooth there. One student however, we reached the end of the line with. I called the parent and notified him we were going to have to paddle him. His Dad said "you ain't laying a finger on my boy". I told him that was fine and he would have to come get him for a 3 day suspension. He said.. "I don't want that little bastard home with me for 3 days, go ahead and hit him." (yes, he said exactly that). 3 gentle swats later, the boy was not in trouble the rest of the year!
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:58 PM   #23
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Now, I'm not a beat'em in to submission guy, but removing the paddle really impacted discipline, I believe (Its not a cure all, I know). 15 years ago I was at a school that still paddled, and usually only the threat of it was good enough and things went smooth there. One student however, we reached the end of the line with. I called the parent and notified him we were going to have to paddle him. His Dad said "you ain't laying a finger on my boy". I told him that was fine and he would have to come get him for a 3 day suspension. He said.. "I don't want that little bastard home with me for 3 days, go ahead and hit him." (yes, he said exactly that). 3 gentle swats later, the boy was not in trouble the rest of the year!
I also suspect, though, that the schools that allowed paddling also had (for the most part) parents who respected the teacher's role as a disciplinarian and were thus not likely to be the type of parents who will always side with their little precious since it HAD to be the teacher's fault...
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:08 PM   #24
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I also suspect, though, that the schools that allowed paddling also had (for the most part) parents who respected the teacher's role as a disciplinarian and were thus not likely to be the type of parents who will always side with their little precious since it HAD to be the teacher's fault...
That is true.. Used to be you could get ahead of the curve on some of the more difficult parents by calling them and getting the word to them ahead of time. Now some of those kids will text or call their parents before they even make it to the office and putting "their spin" out first! I would always try to be fair to the kids and listen to them, as occassionly they would have a point.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:18 PM   #25
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Johnnie36...Looks like starting is $25,222 and average is $46,390.

Some may be paid as much as the $89,000 but I bet it is for the ones that have been teaching for 25 plus years...maybe?

Link: teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary
Thanks for the help on this subject. If you take the average and add $20000 for a great benefit package, you're at $66390. That's the average but this radio talk show host said "average of $89000". Like I said, all kind of numbers come out of the woodwork.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:20 PM   #26
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Now, I'm not a beat'em in to submission guy, but removing the paddle really impacted discipline, I believe (Its not a cure all, I know). 15 years ago I was at a school that still paddled, and usually only the threat of it was good enough and things went smooth there. One student however, we reached the end of the line with. I called the parent and notified him we were going to have to paddle him. His Dad said "you ain't laying a finger on my boy". I told him that was fine and he would have to come get him for a 3 day suspension. He said.. "I don't want that little bastard home with me for 3 days, go ahead and hit him." (yes, he said exactly that). 3 gentle swats later, the boy was not in trouble the rest of the year!
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:57 PM   #27
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Yes, but that oversimplifies the debate, I think. Because the feeling is that if we *do* let all the money (or CBA rights, even) stay in the hands of Wisconsin state employees, that it will come out of the pockets of Wisconsin taxpayers who don't directly benefit from it.
No oversimplification for me. I'm not asking Wisconsin taxpayers to foot the bill, I'm waiting for helicopter Ben. If you're a Keynesian and want to grow the money supply, take backs aren't gonna help. The Fed needs to bail out the states and keep wages, benefits, and most importantly confidence high so those union workers will keep on going to WalMart instead of picket lines. I don't necessarily like it, but it's a path that was chosen before I was born.
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:00 PM   #28
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We have to decide...

Do the public employees serve the populace at large ?

Or, viceversa ?

Who (exactly) is the servant and who is the master.

Once we decide that, it will be clear what to do.
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:09 PM   #29
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Our state requires a certain amount of salary transparency. One of the requirements is that each school district must publish the salaries that are over $100k. I just looked at our district and most of the salaries over $100k are principals or senior administrators. There are 4 teachers, though. As an example, here's the lowest paid teach earning more than $100K:

Base wages $82,386
Other wages 19,056
Subtotal $101,442 (this triggers the reporting requirement)
Soc.Sec $7,669
Pension $17,083 (this is listed as "mandated" ?)
Benefits $13,634
Total $139,828

Add another $10K or so for the highest teacher on the list.
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:26 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=misanman;1040541]Our state requires a certain amount of salary transparency. One of the requirements is that each school district must publish the salaries that are over $100k. I just looked at our district and most of the salaries over $100k are principals or senior administrators. There are 4 teachers, though. As an example, here's the lowest paid teach earning more than $100K:

Base wages $82,386
Other wages 19,056
Subtotal $101,442 (this triggers the reporting requirement)
Soc.Sec $7,669
Pension $17,083 (this is listed as "mandated" ?)
Benefits $13,634
Total $139,828

Not commenting on who is worth what, but generally administrators work 230 day(usually called 11 or 12 month contract) or so contracts and teachers work 185 or so(school year contracts, plus inservice days). At least in my state of residence that is generally so.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:00 PM   #31
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Financedude.

I also agree teacher salaries are fair. Most work hard and work longer hours during the school months than perceived. But WOW...look at those health care and pension contributions....it looks like 71% of salary. The salary of 52,000 is about what I would have expected. Now you have me curious. I wonder if benefits for all states are running at that percentage.

-1. 89K for 9 months work is 118.6K / year. Wayyy over paid. The 22K for health insur is kickback money. Unions are wasteful overhead. If you want to join a union then get a job in the private sector. Drop the unions and tenure to get some competitive fresh blood in the education system.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:02 PM   #32
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I took a quick look at the Wisconsin pension plan and found online pension calculator.

A teacher with 30+ years in the system could retire at age 57 if she ended up with a finally salary of $72,000 a year (which seems like a reasonable figure for a senior teach in the state) she would a get pension of $3,149/month for life.
To buy an annuity from Berkshire to provide her would cost her $619K. In another thread we discussed a WSJ article which showed only 8% of Americans had 401K with more than $636K which is what they calculated was need for a decent retirement.

The Wisconsin pension is slightly less generous (<2% of salary per year of work) and certainly better funded than the majority of state and local pension. Still going forward it is hard to ask the public to pay for a retirement that is better than 90% of there, especially when public employees make no or modest contributions toward.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:14 PM   #33
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-1. 89K for 9 months work is 118.6K / year. Wayyy over paid. The 22K for health insur is kickback money. Unions are wasteful overhead.
I have no opinion about whether teachers are under- or over-paid, but if they are paid too much, I just don't understand how anyone can think this is the fault of their union. The union bargains on their behalf, but it's the state/school authority that must sign a contract that grants them salary and benefits. Is it evil for teachers or their union to ask for raises? You all are talking as though the unions somehow reach directly into taxpayers' pockets.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:17 PM   #34
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Well, that's different...

Let's see: put up with a class full of brats, and their equally bratty parents; grade 40 or 80 or 120 tests, at night, at home, on my own time; buy class materials, with my own money; compete for the attention of kids inundated with TV, internet, video games, sext messages, sports, celebrities...

Dang, where do I sign? Sounds like such a deal...
+1HFWR....

I've watched my daughter this year. Granted she is a first year teacher...but I'm fairly confident she puts in 10 hours a day each week-day (7:15 to 5:30 many days a week) plus time on week-ends...preparing materials, lesson plans, grading papers etc........for the upcoming week.
I do not think that in my several careers.....orthopedic research, information systems, operations analyst and finally V.P of family business...that I was pulled constantly in as many directions in a day as she currently is.
Or perhaps it's just that I'm 3 decades older and have forgotten...
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:17 PM   #35
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-1. 89K for 9 months work is 118.6K / year. Wayyy over paid. The 22K for health insur is kickback money. Unions are wasteful overhead. If you want to join a union then get a job in the private sector. Drop the unions and tenure to get some competitive fresh blood in the education system.
I would suggest that salary is the exception and not the rule for all. Plus we are looking at it from a retirees perspective. Most teachers come out of the gate clearing a couple a grand a month. 50 % of all teachers leave the profession within 5 years, so a lot of them arent hanging on for the pension (though I concede they are good in most places). An oddity about the profession is that teacher "A" can be making $70K and teacher "B" can be making $35K teaching the same thing, with teacher "B" being the best teacher.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:23 PM   #36
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Now, I'm not a beat'em in to submission guy, but removing the paddle really impacted discipline, I believe (Its not a cure all, I know). 15 years ago I was at a school that still paddled, and usually only the threat of it was good enough and things went smooth there. One student however, we reached the end of the line with. I called the parent and notified him we were going to have to paddle him. His Dad said "you ain't laying a finger on my boy". I told him that was fine and he would have to come get him for a 3 day suspension. He said.. "I don't want that little bastard home with me for 3 days, go ahead and hit him." (yes, he said exactly that). 3 gentle swats later, the boy was not in trouble the rest of the year!
Laughing
After what my daughter has told me I absolutely believe this!!

My daughter met with a parent right as school opened. Parent: Ms. Teacher ...I gotta tell you...I been working with Mr. Student all summer and Ms. Teacher...I gotta tell you ...he is dumb as Dennis the Menace. !

If it was not so funny it would be sad....since it was in front of the child.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:37 PM   #37
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Here is the part of the bill that appears to be fueling the protests:

Collective bargaining The bill would make various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. These changes take effect upon the expiration of existing contracts. Local law enforcement and fire employees, and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from these changes.
Going back to this post....it doesn't seem right that some of the state employees are exempt from this fight.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:38 PM   #38
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Laughing
After what my daughter has told me I absolutely believe this!!

My daughter met with a parent right as school opened. Parent: Ms. Teacher ...I gotta tell you...I been working with Mr. Student all summer and Ms. Teacher...I gotta tell you ...he is dumb as Dennis the Menace. !

If it was not so funny it would be sad....since it was in front of the child.
I shamefully laughed! As she is young, she will accumulate many stories to tell Hopefully she can keep perspective when bad days occur and remember the good she is doing for her kids.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:45 PM   #39
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There's a huge difference between the role of unions in private enterprise and in the public sector.

In private enterprise the business owners want to maximize profit and have an interest in decreasing labor costs. Workers want to maximize labor costs. The actual labor union leadership wants to maximize labor costs (more pay=more dues). The tension creates positive feedback which is good: If management doesn't meet realistic labor demands, they lose money in strikes. If management gives away too much, then other (maybe non-union) businesses get a competitive advantage and the business goes under.

It's totally different in the public sector. Elected representatives are supposed to be in the role of "management" and keep labor costs in check, but if they receive the support of labor unions in elections, everyone is on the same side. Everyone at the "bargaining" table benefits when labor costs rise. More money for workers, more money for union leaders, and more campaign donations for complicit politicians to keep the whole scheme running for the next go-round. It's not a negotiation, it's more properly viewed as a conspiracy.

The only feedback mechanism to check this larceny is when voters have finally had enough and purge the politicians. As the stockholders, voters replace the board with folks who will represent their interests and get costs back under control. That's what happened in the last election. Now we've got some legislators who've decided that they don't like this new game and have run away from their posts rather than do their jobs. That's not gonna make the stockholders any happier.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:50 PM   #40
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This isn't me (don't ask how I know!) - but here is an example of a 2080 hour State of Wisconsin Employee making ~53,000/year

Description - Employer Portion - State Contribution

Family Health Plan - $936 - 16,260
Retirement - $0 - 6,334
Group Life - $32 - 20
OASDI - $3167 - 3167
Medicare - $740 - 740

So family health insurance and retirement, add approx 22,000 to the wage.

It should be noted that the retirement $$ is not necessarily the employee's - it is the amount the employer contributes on behalf of the employee. Certain age/years of service criteria apply before being able to retire with the annuity.
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