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Old 03-13-2011, 12:08 PM   #161
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they didn't get the tax breaks to relocate that the big business probably did.
I do have a problem with giving tax breaks to business to relocate. We end up with one state/locality competing with another, and it all comes out of the taxpayer's pocket.

But as long as locals have taxing authority, I hardly see what we can do about it. I guess as long as they see the tax breaks as a cost for a long term benefit, they ought to free to do so, whether any of us like it or not. And I guess the long term "theoretical" view is we should only vote in people who won't give tax breaks to businesses to relocate, but we can see how far we will get with that.

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Old 03-13-2011, 02:51 PM   #162
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A recent example is Boeing building a large plant, and essentially moving a good part of future production to South Carolina.
Not to high jack the thread here but a couple of months ago I learned of a situation that may be contributing to business flight from Washington state. I know a couple of people who have collected unemployment benefits from Washington but have never lived there nor paid even one penny in taxes to that state. They live in ND, worked in Minnesota, then took the train to Washington to apply for benefits and got them (I saw one of the checks); that has got to be one of the worst wastes of state funds I have ever heard of. Washington unemployment benefits are about 25% higher than ND's so there is an incentive.
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:21 PM   #163
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A recent example is Boeing building a large plant, and essentially moving a good part of future production to South Carolina. With this move, they cut an incredibly troublesome union down to size, they get exposure to a cheaper supply chain in SC, and after a shakedown and training period for perhaps less skilled machinists etc, they should be able to maintain at least some degree of world competiveness.
That seems like a better ending (for the US) than losing business to Airbus or having Boeing build a plant in Mexico/Indonesia. Now, we'll see if the business environment in SC stays hospitable, or if these workers or local governments find a way to kill (or drive off) the goose that lays the golden egg.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:32 AM   #164
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What's really funny is how one group of people can get together, pool their resources, and appoint a front man to negotiate for them, under the name of prudent management,
Sounds like the head of most unions........
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #165
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We're Still Here in Wisconsin!!!!

Heck, this past month has sure been interesting..........

Anyway, there was a protest at the Capitol on Saturday, about 90,000-100,000 people. The 14 state senators that fled came back and got a heroes welcome, all captured by breathless reporters.

The best sign I saw on TV read: "I Would Have Come Sooner, But I had to Work, and my Doctor doesn't think Protesting is a Medical Excuse".............

We have about 6 million residents in the state, about 5 million are adult workers, so even if we say ALL 100,000 folks were from Wisconsin (they were not), that's only about 2% of all working adults. It does make for good tv. 93 % of Wisconsin residents work in the private sector, so the protesters represent 7% of the entire workforce. I give them a lot of credit, they do a good job of protesting..........

I expect legal challenges and other stuff to extend into the summer. Our local teacher's union is really getting out the dire news about how awful things are going to be in the next few years. One of the principals at the largest elementary school told me 7 teachers are retiring, all with 30+ years in, only 2 had planned it before the whole budget repair bill thing. I know all 7, and 4 are really burned out, so that's probably good in a way. There are a LOT of young teachers in our area, I imagine they will get 100 applicants or more for those 7 jobs when announced.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:16 PM   #166
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There are a LOT of young teachers in our area, I imagine they will get 100 applicants or more for those 7 jobs when announced.
If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:43 PM   #167
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If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?
From what I know, layoffs are based on classes being cut. When there were cuts in our district, that's how it worked.

So, if those 7 teachers are retiring, yet the classes they were teaching remain, the district will need replacement teachers for those classes. As I understand it, the positions would first be filled with any tenured teachers with credentials to teach that class, but those tenured teachers would be coming from classes that were cut (else they would stay put). Second, they would likely (but not necessarily?) be filled from non-tenured teachers that were cut from that district. Lastly, they would look to hire new teachers as replacements.

So, if those 7 were math teachers, and all the classes being cut were PE and Music teachers w/o math credentials, that could be a case where they need to hire new.

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Old 03-14-2011, 01:36 PM   #168
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If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?
Every district has a headcount. The 1000 teachers is for all school districts in the state of Wisconsin. Our school district is facing a $470,000 shortfall, which puts us in better shape than most. MPS, the largest school district in the state, might lose a couple hundred teachers, but with a graduation rate of 50%, they are already headed for a restructuring.........
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:58 PM   #169
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If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?

I think you're missing the fact that the governor spoke of laying off 1500 state employees, not 1600 teachers. Where did you see the info about 1600 teachers?
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:06 PM   #170
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I think you're missing the fact that the governor spoke of laying off 1500 state employees, not 1600 teachers. Where did you see the info about 1600 teachers?
EVERYTHING in Wisconsin centers around the teachers, they have the best benefits and the strongest union in the state.

An interesting topic was brought up locally. In the public sector, the HIGHEST paid employees are protected, while in the private sector, more often that not the LOWEST paid employees are protected........

Two of the Republican state senators that voted for the budget repair bill are married to teachers, and in all likelihood their wives will lose their jobs. That was barely mentioned in all the media frenzy........
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:16 PM   #171
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If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?
Lots of numbers being thrown around these days........ Here's a link to yet another angle on this: Stimulus-Funded Teachers to be Laid Off | MacIver Institute.

A big chunk of Stimulus money went to KEEP teachers whose positions would have been cut two years ago if the school districts had not gotten that money. It merely delayed the inevitable IMHO. Now districts are "facing the music" that they did not have to face two years ago. Since when are teacher salaries "shovel-ready projects"??
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:47 PM   #172
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Since when are teacher salaries "shovel-ready projects"??
Since they are Democrat voting union members, that's when.

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Old 03-14-2011, 02:59 PM   #173
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Since they are Democrat voting union members, that's when.Ha
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #174
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Since when are teacher salaries "shovel-ready projects"??
That was a very irritating aspect of the "stimulus" marketing. It was sold as an investment in infrastructure that would improve US productivity well into the future. There are federal/local expenditures that would meet that definition. But that's not what the money has largely been spent on--it has generally been spent on the daily operations in states, counties, and municipalities. Just preserving public sector jobs. I guess it's possible all those school guidance counselors and social workers were put to work paving roads and reinforcing bridges, but I doubt it.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:35 PM   #175
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EVERYTHING in Wisconsin centers around the teachers, they have the best benefits and the strongest union in the state.
Do you actually know for a fact that all the Wis layoffs spoken of by the governor would have been 100% teachers? I read the layoffs would have involved some state employees as well.
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An interesting topic was brought up locally. In the public sector, the HIGHEST paid employees are protected, while in the private sector, more often that not the LOWEST paid employees are protected........
It works differently here in Illinois. Our highest paid public sector employees such as school superintendents, high level state employees such as the govenors staff, etc. are not protected. Interesting that those folks would be union members in Wis. Which union?
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Two of the Republican state senators that voted for the budget repair bill are married to teachers, and in all likelihood their wives will lose their jobs. That was barely mentioned in all the media frenzy........
Wow! So you know who's on the layoff lists? It's a little surprising that the senators would be married to low seniority teachers since they're not young kids themselves, but ya never know.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:45 PM   #176
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Do you actually know for a fact that all the Wis layoffs spoken of by the governor would have been 100% teachers? I read the layoffs would have involved some state employees as well.
Not just teachers would be laid off, other employees too, but the teacher's unions make it sound like it will be 100% teachers.........

[quote] It works differently here in Illinois. Our highest paid public sector employees such as school superintendents, high level state employees such as the govenors staff, etc. are not protected. Interesting that those folks would be union members in Wis. Which union?{/quote]

Not sure, but Gov Walker reminded everyone HE is a state employee too, so HE is giving up collective bargaining............

Quote:
Wow! So you know who's on the layoff lists? It's a little surprising that the senators would be married to low seniority teachers since they're not young kids themselves, but ya never know.
The school districts already were given warning on the loss of state aid. The communities where these Republican senators come from are fiscally conervative areas. Both senator's wives are not 20 year+ employees, one went back to work after raising kids, not sure about the other......
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:46 PM   #177
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That was a very irritating aspect of the "stimulus" marketing. It was sold as an investment in infrastructure that would improve US productivity well into the future. There are federal/local expenditures that would meet that definition. But that's not what the money has largely been spent on--it has generally been spent on the daily operations in states, counties, and municipalities. Just preserving public sector jobs. I guess it's possible all those school guidance counselors and social workers were put to work paving roads and reinforcing bridges, but I doubt it.
Well, SOMETHING was being shoveled...........
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #178
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Not sure, but Gov Walker reminded everyone HE is a state employee too, so HE is giving up collective bargaining............

Not trying to be nit-picky here FD, I know you're kinda emotionally fired up on all of this, but the govenor never had collective bargaining rights. If he said he has collective bargaining rights that are being diminished by this legislation, I think we have a credibility issue with him.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he pays dues to one of the state employee unions, carries his union card, votes in union elections, etc. I just don't think so.........
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:14 PM   #179
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If they were prepared to lay off 1600 teachers (I've heard several numbers quoted), why would they replace these 7? What am I missing?
I am quoting myself so as not to pick out one of the responses above. If Wisconsin has a $3.6B deficit it's trying to deal with, why would you replace any teachers who leave? Do you think a business running at a huge loss would not take advantage of attrition to cut costs whenever they present themselves?

Before laying off anyone, or reducing anyone's wages & benefits, you first restructure your remaining workforce to reduce costs through natural attrition. It's the least painful way to reduce costs. This case is about an elementary school, so you eliminate 1 class at each grade level (1 thru 6 presumably) and increase class size on all the remaining classes. It's not ideal, but with those kind of deficits, you don't have to replace teachers you clearly can't pay for. I recently read that Detroit is going to 60 students per class, that's awful but you can't just maintain the status quo either.
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:21 PM   #180
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Not sure, but Gov Walker reminded everyone HE is a state employee too, so HE is giving up collective bargaining............
Wow. Do you think he'll drop his membership in the Wisconsin Governor's Union Local #1? Might save on some dues that way...
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