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Old 04-21-2011, 02:47 PM   #61
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And the engine just died as Sam and Mary argued whether it needed more fuel or a cleaning.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #62
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I think it was more of a political move than a solvency issue. One can understand trying to avert disaster at Fannie and Freddie and maybe AIG but the car companies are a head scratcher............


Not really.... who wants to have millions of people let go under their watch


Now, I am not of the belief that the companies would have gone through Chap 7... you can delay a lot of things in BK...


I still do not know why the union got a big hunk of the ownership (well, I do know... political payback)... the gvmt should have owned the whole company to minimize the losses... if we had made a profit..... then we could have paid off the other creditors with the left overs...
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:06 PM   #63
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Not really.... who wants to have millions of people let go under their watch
Millions of people? I don't think so, companies go bankrupt all the time but they don't cease operations and quit making products for sale..........


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Now, I am not of the belief that the companies would have gone through Chap 7... you can delay a lot of things in BK...
As well as get out from underneath unfunded pension liabilities and the like........
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:53 PM   #64
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Humbled GM files for bankruptcy protection - Business - Autos - msnbc.com

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“There is no other sale, or other potential purchasers, present or on the horizon,” Henderson said in an affidavit filed Monday in bankruptcy court. “The only other alternative is the liquidation of the debtors’ assets that would substantially diminish the value of GM’s business and assets, (and) throw hundreds of thousands of persons out of work and cause the termination of health benefits and jeopardize retirement benefits for current and former employees and their families.”
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:13 PM   #65
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Millions of people? I don't think so, companies go bankrupt all the time but they don't cease operations and quit making products for sale..........
)
AFAIK, it depends on whether they can find financing for Ch 11 or go through Ch 7 and liquidation. Nobody but the feds was willing to put up financing. But I'm sure we've got people on this board who actually work bankruptcies. Maybe one of them will clarify.

But, whatever we did with the autos, it doesn't justify giving F&F etc. creditors a free pass.
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Old 04-23-2011, 09:30 AM   #66
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Millions of people? I don't think so, companies go bankrupt all the time but they don't cease operations and quit making products for sale..........
I have to agree. Yes, there would have been people unemployed, but they were excess capacity in the system. That excess has not been wrung out, so it is still there and still being a drag on the industry. Until that excess is taken out of the system the industry will not be healthy and will continue to struggle to make a profit.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:01 PM   #67
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Point of no return is because of the debt, not because of the income disparity. I agree that lobbyists have too much say.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:34 AM   #68
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The American Dream is not the only dream.
This was lost in the shuffle and needs repeating. Maybe the American Dream changes?
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:39 AM   #69
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I agree that lobbyists have too much say.
Was the Constitution changed? Lobbyists get to vote in Congress now?

How about putting the blame where it belongs - the Congress Critters that vote for special interests rather than for the 'general welfare'?

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Old 05-02-2011, 08:29 AM   #70
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Was the Constitution changed? Lobbyists get to vote in Congress now?

How about putting the blame where it belongs - the Congress Critters that vote for special interests rather than for the 'general welfare'?

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For every politician with hand outstretched there is a donor handing over money. Together they are co-conspirators, both willing partners and equally committed to using this money to further their interests or deny others.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:46 AM   #71
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For every politician with hand outstretched there is a donor handing over money. Together they are co-conspirators, both willing partners and equally committed to using this money to further their interests or deny others.
Yes, but one of them took a sworn oath.

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Old 05-02-2011, 09:05 AM   #72
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Yes, but one of them took a sworn oath.

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What are they violating?

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I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
ERD, I'm not disagreeing with your dim view of politicians taking money, just pointing out that the people giving them the money are no better.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:39 AM   #73
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What are they violating?



ERD, I'm not disagreeing with your dim view of politicians taking money, just pointing out that the people giving them the money are no better.
I'm not letting the bribe offerers (I'll use that term for simplicity) off the hook, I'm just saying the bribe takers are the ones I hold to a higher standard.

If an officer of a company is approached by an outsider to embezzle money, does it and gets caught, I would hold the officer of the company to a higher standard than the random person approaching them.

They swore to uphold the Constitution, which has the 'general welfare' clause, not a 'specific welfare for those who bribe me' clause. So I would say they are violating their oath to uphold the Constitution.

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:47 AM   #74
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I'm not letting the bribe offerers (I'll use that term for simplicity) off the hook, I'm just saying the bribe takers are the ones I hold to a higher standard.

If an officer of a company is approached by an outsider to embezzle money, does it and gets caught, I would hold the officer of the company to a higher standard than the random person approaching them.

They swore to uphold the Constitution, which has the 'general welfare' clause, not a 'specific welfare for those who bribe me' clause. So I would say they are violating their oath to uphold the Constitution.

-ERD50
Not sure where bribe came from. The Supreme court doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with contributing money to politicians - or even judges in some states. I do, but in most cases I wouldn't call that bribery.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:20 PM   #75
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I'm not letting the bribe offerers (I'll use that term for simplicity) off the hook, I'm just saying the bribe takers are the ones I hold to a higher standard.
"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
-- Simon Cameron

(Simon Cameron was a Secretary of War under Lincoln, and a Senator. His corruption was so notorious that Congressman Thaddeus Stevens, when discussing Cameron's honesty with Lincoln, told Lincoln that "I don't think that he would steal a red hot stove". When Cameron demanded Stevens retract this statement, Stevens told Lincoln "I believe I told you he would not steal a red-hot stove. I will now take that back.")
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:24 PM   #76
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Not sure where bribe came from. The Supreme court doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with contributing money to politicians - or even judges in some states. I do, but in most cases I wouldn't call that bribery.
As I said, I just used the term 'bribe' for simplicity. What I mean is " A Congressperson putting the requests of a special interest group (often represented by a lobby) ahead of (often to the detriment of) the 'general welfare' in return for other 'favors'".

I'm sure that verbiage can be dissected, but 'bribe' was a lot simpler and to the point.

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Old 05-02-2011, 01:43 PM   #77
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Maybe I'm naive, but I expect a decent lobbyist presents a win-win to the lobbied party. Not only is giving Xplodocorp good for the troops, but the jobs it creates in Missoula are good for Senator Bullmoose's constituents. The nation benefits by having the finest military equipped with the best in exploding hardware. Now if Bullmoose's BIL happens to be a fine widget polisher it might just happen that that is just what Xplodocorp is in desperate need of at the new plant - maybe they could hire him as a trainer or motivational speaker?

Bribes? Surely not!
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:59 PM   #78
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Maybe I'm naive, but I expect a decent lobbyist presents a win-win to the lobbied party.
I think this happens, and it's fine. But I was responding to the line posted about lobbyists having 'too much say'. They can 'say' all they want if it is a win for the 'general welfare'. If it isn't the legislature should not go along.

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Old 05-02-2011, 03:38 PM   #79
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As I said, I just used the term 'bribe' for simplicity. What I mean is " A Congressperson putting the requests of a special interest group (often represented by a lobby) ahead of (often to the detriment of) the 'general welfare' in return for other 'favors'".

I'm sure that verbiage can be dissected, but 'bribe' was a lot simpler and to the point.

-ERD50
Right. Bribe has a distinct criminal implication. This is too cynical for me.
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:48 PM   #80
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Right. Bribe has a distinct criminal implication. This is too cynical for me.
When it comes to Congress, I don't think I could ever be 'too cynical'. YMMV.

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