Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2011, 09:50 AM   #261
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by missionfinder View Post
Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
Missionfinder, you seem not to grasp the concept of spending OPM "Other Peoples Money"; the mission statement of the HTFC " higher tax fan club".

It's easy to be sanctimonius when it's not your money....
Westernskies is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-28-2011, 10:33 AM   #262
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by missionfinder View Post
Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
How about this.......we actually CREATE jobs, so people can PAY taxes, and that would work. Anyone think that if we had 6% unemployment rather than close to 10% that the govt would collect more money?

It's easy to say "tax the rich" until you're one of them..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 10:39 AM   #263
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
How about this.......we actually CREATE jobs, so people can PAY taxes, and that would work. Anyone think that if we had 6% unemployment rather than close to 10% that the govt would collect more money?
FinanceDude, that's just crazy talk... Everyone knows taxes need to come from the idle rich, not the working class.
Westernskies is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 10:44 AM   #264
Moderator Emeritus
M Paquette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
well said. all these concerns about the wealthy leaving the USA because of higher taxes are just not well thought out. they wont leave, and even if they did they would still owe the tax. they wont renounce their US citizenship.
Heh.

Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship
Quote:
persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations
Oh, and they may also owe expatriation tax.
Expatriation Tax
M Paquette is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 11:02 AM   #265
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by missionfinder View Post
Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
What does that have to do with tax policy?

A few people volunteering to pay more than they owe isn't going to make a difference.

We're talking about tax rates across a large swath of households.

A lot of the super rich, like Buffett, have advocated for higher marginal rates. But those few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good are offset by others who think their taxes are too high and look for ways to reduce their tax liabilities.
explanade is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 11:28 AM   #266
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
But those few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good are offset by others who think their taxes are too high and look for ways to reduce their tax liabilities.
a "few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good" pretty much sums it up...
Westernskies is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:13 PM   #267
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
I am getting something useful from this thread, beyond that many members figure that they will never be counted among the "rich", no matter who is defining that group. And that is, get that money into a Roth now, even if it costs me more short term. And maybe pay cash for a dwelling, to get that no longer necessary flow off Arrogant Avaricious Uncle's radar.

What a mess. I am a little shocked (but only a little by now) by the absolute lack of any morality beyond "my guys are going to grab whatever you rich bstds can't protect, 'cause you suck."

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:17 PM   #268
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,422
Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
explanade is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:18 PM   #269
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
Oh no, that is quite common. It is called lying. We can all be virtuous as long as the personal cost seems low.

As you won't believe me, consult the voluminous literature on the social psychology, sociology and political science in this area.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:27 PM   #270
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Oh no, that is quite common. It is called lying.

Ha
Once again, Ha hits the target dead center!
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:32 PM   #271
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
samclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I am getting something useful from this thread, beyond that many members figure that they will never be counted among the "rich", no matter who is defining that group. And that is, get that money into a Roth now, even if it costs me more short term. And maybe pay cash for a dwelling, to get that no longer necessary flow off Arrogant Avaricious Uncle's radar.
And, I'm not sure the promised Roth tax free status is the bulletproof shield many believe. Why wouldn't Roth gains be taxed, if all the other promises/"understandings" are also being re-examined? We probably wouldn't see a direct tax on Roth withdrawals per se, but there are many ways to include Roth proceeds in other formulas for income so that taxes increase as Roth money is withdrawn.
Ants, prepare to help out the grasshoppers. Don't be greedy now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
We can all be virtuous as long as the personal cost seems low.
I think it's possible to separate our personal situation and offer honest opinions about what would be best for everyone without respect for personal gain. But it's indeed a twisted version of "charity" that involves using someone else's money. The guy that puts $10 in the Salvation Army kettle has earned far more points in my book than the anguished activist who cries out day and night for higher taxes for the benefit of the poor.
samclem is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:35 PM   #272
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
"Some can", I am not including you in "some" pending further discussion...............
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:48 PM   #273
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
We probably wouldn't see a direct tax on Roth withdrawals per se, but there are many ways to include Roth proceeds in other formulas for income so that taxes increase as Roth money is withdrawn.
I concur. Taxes on Roth IRA's will creep in like a slow moving cancer and, as you say, will not be applied directly to withdrawals but will involve withdrawals counting as income for determining Medicare premiums, eligibility for deductions, etc.
Quote:
Ants, prepare to help out the grasshoppers. Don't be greedy now.
I dread this.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:57 PM   #274
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
Fourteen pages and counting.

I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 12:58 PM   #275
Moderator Emeritus
M Paquette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 4,946
This whole fuss is fundamentally how do we match up taxation with spending. We've seen arguments for more taxation of various sorts, and suggestions as to possible spending cuts here and there, but none of them have come close to covering the current deficit.

Rep Paul Ryan had a roadmap that would eventually balance the budget, although the total national debt will still rise to over 100% of GDP by 2050. His own party appears to have backed away from supporting this plan, however, in favor of rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking budget.

It might, perhaps, be time to contemplate adjustments to non-discretionary spending, to the benefit of state and federal government, by adapting a program structured along the lines of an older proposal suggested for Ireland's fiscal problems.

A Modest Proposal for Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from being A Burden to Their Parents of Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Public

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing.
M Paquette is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 01:16 PM   #276
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 13,151
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...
I know the answer. I'm just holding back because I'm enjoying the conversation and hate to cut it short.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is online now  
Old 02-28-2011, 01:22 PM   #277
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I think it's possible to separate our personal situation and offer honest opinions about what would be best for everyone without respect for personal gain. But it's indeed a twisted version of "charity" that involves using someone else's money. The guy that puts $10 in the Salvation Army kettle has earned far more points in my book than the anguished activist who cries out day and night for higher taxes for the benefit of the poor.
Taxes aren't charity.

They're the cost of living in a civil, industrialized society.

I don't want to pay private companies to put out fires in my town or hire private security forces. Or turn all roads into private property requiring several tolls to drive 10 miles.

Speaking of moving to another country, you can move to developing countries where tax rates are low and infrastructure is non-existent. Mexico has low marginal rates and not much in the way of decent public education, a vestige of the fact that in the New World, the US targeted universal literacy early on while most Latin American countries didn't bother.

It's not an accident that the US, with much higher literacy and level of education in the populace, has a diversified, industrialized economy while they still don't.

But that's okay, rich Latin Americans send their children to private schools (often in the US or Europe) since they get to keep more of their own money!
explanade is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 01:40 PM   #278
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
Fourteen pages and counting.

I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...

I would have thought I would have seen a pig by now... glad that it has not happened...
Texas Proud is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 01:56 PM   #279
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by explanade View Post
But that's okay, rich Latin Americans send their children to private schools (often in the US or Europe) since they get to keep more of their own money!
So do rich, or even many upper middle class Americans.

And while we are congratulating ourselves on literacy, we should likely admit that it is not very good, especially considering how much we spend on public education- highest in the world per student. There is almost no aspect of public services in which the US gets performance for all the money it throws at the problems.
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 02-28-2011, 02:03 PM   #280
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
One of the problems with a high cap gain tax is that it can be avoided... and when the rate is very high it is avoided...

You do NOT have to sell cap assets if you do not what to....

Believe me... I did a number of proformas for rich people back in the early 80s on how much a sale of something would cost them... almost all the time they decided to not sell...

So, raising the cap gain tax will not bring in much, if any, new revenue...
I'd say the correct word is "deferred". We currently allow step up in basis at death (one of those things that makes zero sense to me and should be changed), other than that, cap gains eventually get paid.

If this is a really big deal, it's possible to design systems for taxing unrealized gains.
Independent is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rich Falling Behind Super-Rich? Andy R Other topics 1 09-15-2009 08:46 PM
Tax on rich will bring in 63.67B per year dex FIRE and Money 193 03-04-2009 08:19 AM
How rich are you? teejayevans FIRE and Money 0 04-04-2007 10:25 AM
BECOME RICH AND STAY RICH idevision Young Dreamers 12 07-27-2005 03:41 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:29 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.