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Old 02-28-2011, 10:50 AM   #261
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Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
Missionfinder, you seem not to grasp the concept of spending OPM "Other Peoples Money"; the mission statement of the HTFC " higher tax fan club".

It's easy to be sanctimonius when it's not your money....
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:33 AM   #262
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Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
How about this.......we actually CREATE jobs, so people can PAY taxes, and that would work. Anyone think that if we had 6% unemployment rather than close to 10% that the govt would collect more money?

It's easy to say "tax the rich" until you're one of them..........
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #263
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How about this.......we actually CREATE jobs, so people can PAY taxes, and that would work. Anyone think that if we had 6% unemployment rather than close to 10% that the govt would collect more money?
FinanceDude, that's just crazy talk... Everyone knows taxes need to come from the idle rich, not the working class.
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:44 AM   #264
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well said. all these concerns about the wealthy leaving the USA because of higher taxes are just not well thought out. they wont leave, and even if they did they would still owe the tax. they wont renounce their US citizenship.
Heh.

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persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations
Oh, and they may also owe expatriation tax.
Expatriation Tax
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:02 PM   #265
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Have you ever sent the IRS more money than you owe? Choose not to take large deductions you can take? Put your money where your mouth is and voluntarily increase your own taxes. I wonder how much the government would raise if all the people I've seen who say they were ok with higher taxes stepped up to the plate and actually did it?
What does that have to do with tax policy?

A few people volunteering to pay more than they owe isn't going to make a difference.

We're talking about tax rates across a large swath of households.

A lot of the super rich, like Buffett, have advocated for higher marginal rates. But those few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good are offset by others who think their taxes are too high and look for ways to reduce their tax liabilities.
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Old 02-28-2011, 12:28 PM   #266
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But those few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good are offset by others who think their taxes are too high and look for ways to reduce their tax liabilities.
a "few willing to pay more for the sake of what they believe is the public good" pretty much sums it up...
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:13 PM   #267
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I am getting something useful from this thread, beyond that many members figure that they will never be counted among the "rich", no matter who is defining that group. And that is, get that money into a Roth now, even if it costs me more short term. And maybe pay cash for a dwelling, to get that no longer necessary flow off Arrogant Avaricious Uncle's radar.

What a mess. I am a little shocked (but only a little by now) by the absolute lack of any morality beyond "my guys are going to grab whatever you rich bstds can't protect, 'cause you suck."

Ha
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:17 PM   #268
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Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:18 PM   #269
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Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
Oh no, that is quite common. It is called lying. We can all be virtuous as long as the personal cost seems low.

As you won't believe me, consult the voluminous literature on the social psychology, sociology and political science in this area.

Ha
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:27 PM   #270
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Oh no, that is quite common. It is called lying.

Ha
Once again, Ha hits the target dead center!
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:32 PM   #271
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I am getting something useful from this thread, beyond that many members figure that they will never be counted among the "rich", no matter who is defining that group. And that is, get that money into a Roth now, even if it costs me more short term. And maybe pay cash for a dwelling, to get that no longer necessary flow off Arrogant Avaricious Uncle's radar.
And, I'm not sure the promised Roth tax free status is the bulletproof shield many believe. Why wouldn't Roth gains be taxed, if all the other promises/"understandings" are also being re-examined? We probably wouldn't see a direct tax on Roth withdrawals per se, but there are many ways to include Roth proceeds in other formulas for income so that taxes increase as Roth money is withdrawn.
Ants, prepare to help out the grasshoppers. Don't be greedy now.

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We can all be virtuous as long as the personal cost seems low.
I think it's possible to separate our personal situation and offer honest opinions about what would be best for everyone without respect for personal gain. But it's indeed a twisted version of "charity" that involves using someone else's money. The guy that puts $10 in the Salvation Army kettle has earned far more points in my book than the anguished activist who cries out day and night for higher taxes for the benefit of the poor.
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:35 PM   #272
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Believe it or not, some can discuss public policy issues such as taxation without being motivated solely by personal circumstances.

That is, one's stance on these issues isn't based only on self-interest.

Hard to believe, isn't it?
"Some can", I am not including you in "some" pending further discussion...............
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:48 PM   #273
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We probably wouldn't see a direct tax on Roth withdrawals per se, but there are many ways to include Roth proceeds in other formulas for income so that taxes increase as Roth money is withdrawn.
I concur. Taxes on Roth IRA's will creep in like a slow moving cancer and, as you say, will not be applied directly to withdrawals but will involve withdrawals counting as income for determining Medicare premiums, eligibility for deductions, etc.
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I dread this.
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:57 PM   #274
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Fourteen pages and counting.

I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:58 PM   #275
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This whole fuss is fundamentally how do we match up taxation with spending. We've seen arguments for more taxation of various sorts, and suggestions as to possible spending cuts here and there, but none of them have come close to covering the current deficit.

Rep Paul Ryan had a roadmap that would eventually balance the budget, although the total national debt will still rise to over 100% of GDP by 2050. His own party appears to have backed away from supporting this plan, however, in favor of rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking budget.

It might, perhaps, be time to contemplate adjustments to non-discretionary spending, to the benefit of state and federal government, by adapting a program structured along the lines of an older proposal suggested for Ireland's fiscal problems.

A Modest Proposal for Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from being A Burden to Their Parents of Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Public

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich. I have no children by which I can propose to get a single penny; the youngest being nine years old, and my wife past child-bearing.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:16 PM   #276
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I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...
I know the answer. I'm just holding back because I'm enjoying the conversation and hate to cut it short.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #277
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I think it's possible to separate our personal situation and offer honest opinions about what would be best for everyone without respect for personal gain. But it's indeed a twisted version of "charity" that involves using someone else's money. The guy that puts $10 in the Salvation Army kettle has earned far more points in my book than the anguished activist who cries out day and night for higher taxes for the benefit of the poor.
Taxes aren't charity.

They're the cost of living in a civil, industrialized society.

I don't want to pay private companies to put out fires in my town or hire private security forces. Or turn all roads into private property requiring several tolls to drive 10 miles.

Speaking of moving to another country, you can move to developing countries where tax rates are low and infrastructure is non-existent. Mexico has low marginal rates and not much in the way of decent public education, a vestige of the fact that in the New World, the US targeted universal literacy early on while most Latin American countries didn't bother.

It's not an accident that the US, with much higher literacy and level of education in the populace, has a diversified, industrialized economy while they still don't.

But that's okay, rich Latin Americans send their children to private schools (often in the US or Europe) since they get to keep more of their own money!
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:40 PM   #278
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Fourteen pages and counting.

I'd have thought we'd solved this by now...

I would have thought I would have seen a pig by now... glad that it has not happened...
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:56 PM   #279
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But that's okay, rich Latin Americans send their children to private schools (often in the US or Europe) since they get to keep more of their own money!
So do rich, or even many upper middle class Americans.

And while we are congratulating ourselves on literacy, we should likely admit that it is not very good, especially considering how much we spend on public education- highest in the world per student. There is almost no aspect of public services in which the US gets performance for all the money it throws at the problems.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:03 PM   #280
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One of the problems with a high cap gain tax is that it can be avoided... and when the rate is very high it is avoided...

You do NOT have to sell cap assets if you do not what to....

Believe me... I did a number of proformas for rich people back in the early 80s on how much a sale of something would cost them... almost all the time they decided to not sell...

So, raising the cap gain tax will not bring in much, if any, new revenue...
I'd say the correct word is "deferred". We currently allow step up in basis at death (one of those things that makes zero sense to me and should be changed), other than that, cap gains eventually get paid.

If this is a really big deal, it's possible to design systems for taxing unrealized gains.
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