Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-31-2010, 04:32 PM   #81
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
My intention was to illustrate Martha's point -- our Constitution and the laws that flow from it represent a mutual agreement among the people as to the operative principles by which our society will function. But it's just that - an agreement, not an ineluctable law of physics.
My godness- not physics? Why I never could have thought of that on my own! So where does Madam Defarge come in? It seems that that you are saying might is right, which was certainly the working reality during the Fr. Revolution. But the differences between the French Revolution and the American Revolution are dear to many Americans, and in fact are likely central to our country as it has been and I hope will continue to be. Your conception sounds much more like modern Russia or most African nations.

This discussion has helped me to commit to working for some conservative causes in 2011.

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-31-2010, 05:02 PM   #82
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Not sure I follow you on this one Martha (not surprising ) but this is one of the fundamental areas where we differ: US Constitution, Fifth Amendment:..nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. I believe that this was enacted to protect private property rights from the whims of society, and those who would subrogate private property rights for the "greater good of society" in the name of(insert favorite cause here)without due process or compensation.

I'll admit that the Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than what we're using now.
We are using the Constitution now. There was due process. Elect your representatives and senators and they pass a tax law, which they are specifically allowed to do by the Constitution. Just as they are allowed to spend money for the common welfare.

But you missed my point. My point is that everyone feels that they are entitled to something and I do not believe that the rich have any less a sense of entitlement than the poor. With, of course, substantial individual differences.
__________________

__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:07 PM   #83
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post

This discussion has helped me to commit to working for some conservative causes in 2011.

Ha
Are you feeling insecure in your sense of entitlement?
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:08 PM   #84
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
...like a moth drawn to a flame.
You and me both, honey! I thinking of a new years resolution.
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 05:22 PM   #85
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
My godness- not physics? Why I never could have thought of that on my own! So where does Madam Defarge come in? It seems that that you are saying might is right, which was certainly the working reality during the Fr. Revolution. But the differences between the French Revolution and the American Revolution are dear to many Americans, and in fact are likely central to our country as it has been and I hope will continue to be. Your conception sounds much more like modern Russia or most African nations.

This discussion has helped me to commit to working for some conservative causes in 2011.

Ha
I'm not saying what is right or wrong, merely what is -- the concept of personal property is a social construct, as are notions as to what conditions might be imposed on ownership of such personal property. I enjoy our current construct, but I am not blind to the reality that it can change.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 07:41 PM   #86
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupcxan View Post
I wasn't crying crocodile tears over the taxes I will pay nor grousing that they are too high.
Soup, we don't have to get frustrated by the crowd's reaction.

Instead you could pick up a copy of Richistan (from the library, of course) and start thinking about next year's tax brackets!
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 08:17 PM   #87
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danmar View Post
I generally pay 7 figures of tax each year. As you can imagine Life is really good. No complaints from me!
Thanks Danmar. Your contribution matters to other Canadians!

I pay 5 figures in tax annually and am happy to do so. We're all in this together.
__________________
Meadbh is offline  
Old 12-31-2010, 08:40 PM   #88
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
calmloki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Independence
Posts: 5,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadbh View Post
Thanks Danmar. Your contribution matters to other Canadians!

I pay 5 figures in tax annually and am happy to do so. We're all in this together.
keep your stick on the ice... "Quando omni flunkus moritati"

Red Green

__________________
calmloki is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 12:05 AM   #89
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
. I do not believe that the rich have any less a sense of entitlement than the poor. With, of course, substantial individual differences.
Isn't there a difference between a person feeling entitled to retain enough of her own earnings to support her family in a modest fashion and someone feeling entitled to have another person's earnings support her family in a modest fashion? And this despite the measured level of sense of entitlement (measured in units of "entitlement sense") being the same for both?

It isn't how much of a sense of entitlement you have, it's what you sense you're entitled to.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 01:34 AM   #90
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
retire@40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,670
I remember the year I paid as much in taxes as I had made working a full 12 months at my first job.

Did I like paying all those taxes? No.

Did I like making all that money and paying those taxes MORE than working a full year at that low pay? Absolutely.
__________________
No man is free who is not master of himself. --- Epictetus
Enjoy Yourself (It's Later Than You Think). --- Guy Lombardo
retire@40 is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 01:35 AM   #91
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
Are you feeling insecure in your sense of entitlement?
You slay me Martha. If you weren't so cute I might be offended, but you are, so I'm not.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:40 AM   #92
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
But you missed my point. My point is that everyone feels that they are entitled to something and I do not believe that the rich have any less a sense of entitlement than the poor. With, of course, substantial individual differences.

Your entitlement perspective depends, I suppose, on whether you are the payer or the payee.
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:40 AM   #93
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Isn't there a difference between a person feeling entitled to retain enough of her own earnings to support her family in a modest fashion and someone feeling entitled to have another person's earnings support her family in a modest fashion? And this despite the measured level of sense of entitlement (measured in units of "entitlement sense") being the same for both?

It isn't how much of a sense of entitlement you have, it's what you sense you're entitled to.
To kind of piggyback: I agree with Martha that the wealthy do have as strong a feeling of entitlement as the poor. I believe that the wealthy's sense of entitlement is correct while that same sense is misplaced in the poor. The rich have worked and sacrificed their time for the things they possess. The poor have turned O2 into CO2 to get their feeling of entitlement. This is no different than a person earning all A's on their report card in school felling entitled to those grades, because they studied, worked, learned and generally remembered the information, while the person who simply enrolled in the classes feel they should automatically receive a passing grade for paying the money for the class.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:45 AM   #94
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 214
I will pay over $250K in federal income tax for 2010. Have only had about $180K withheld so will have to write a check for $70K come April 15, 2011.

I have mixed feelings about this. Part of me hopes I never pay that much in taxes again. The other part of me says, wait, if I have another year of near-7 figure income it would be a good thing.

Figures were distorted by a lump sum pension distribution and cashing in of two years stock options at once.

I have two more years of big income due to taking all my deferred bonuses in 2011 and 2012, then it is just my $48K pension, dividends and interest. Boy was I happy when they extended the Bush tax cuts for two more years.
__________________
chemist is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 10:26 AM   #95
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
My intention was to illustrate Martha's point -- our Constitution and the laws that flow from it represent a mutual agreement among the people as to the operative principles by which our society will function. But it's just that - an agreement, not an ineluctable law of physics. We have the concept of private property solely because we, as a people, agreed to have that concept. That agreement is subject to change, as has occurred at many times and places around the world. Thus, if everyone else in my town suddenly decides that my house is not my private property and they show up on my front doorstep with rifles to take it, then it's not my private property. Waving a copy of the Constitution at them won't change that reality.
Not even sure where to start, this thread has indeed taken quite a detour from "my taxes exceed the average US Income" but these recent posts shrugging off our private property rights are quite unsettling.

Our Constitution and Bill of Rights form the very basis of our System of Government; the envy of the free world. It may be "just an agreement" to some, but the majority of Americans hold these documents and principles dear, and many have died defending our country so our citizenry can enjoy the inalienable rights outlined therein. Shrug off the significance of these documents if you will, but I can assure you, if everyone else in my town suddenly decides that my house is not my private property (without due process and compensation) and they show up on my front doorstep with rifles to take it, under the Fifth Amendment it is still my private property. Waving a copy of the Constitution at them as you suggest won't change that reality, myself and a plurality of like-minded citizens exercising our second amendment rights will. At the point we will be facing a complete failure of government, and that isn't going to happen-We're not going to accept a Cuba, Venezuela, or Zimbabwe situation here in America (or Canada), despite the best efforts of some to create a entitlement state with government-sanctioned (re)distribution of private wealth and resources. Our election process, in the hands of an informed citizenry will prevent the pendulum swinging too far in either direction, as we experienced recently. Are we in for some rocky times ahead?- sure, but we've been there before, and always came back better and stronger because our people and government are guided by these mere "agreements" and the freedoms, opportunities, and quality of life they foster and protect.

Agree with Ha, the very notion that there are those who hold our guiding principles of government in such flippant regard has prompted me to get more involved in 2011 with causes I admire to keep the ones I loathe in check.
__________________
Westernskies is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 11:15 AM   #96
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Where's that icon when I need it? Oh, here it is:



This topic is moving right up there with the pay off the mortgage discussion.

(And soupxcan, congratulations on your hard work paying off this year--thanks for posting your followup that you were not complaining about the taxes that result from your income this past year.)
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline  
Old 01-01-2011, 11:23 AM   #97
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,109
I think this thread has now wandered permanently off course to purely political discussions so I'm closing it.

Happy 2011 everyone.

__________________

__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seeking tax planning tips for 2010 - DINKs w/ $250k income soupcxan FIRE and Money 16 03-28-2010 06:05 PM
Tax question - Capital loss exceeds income -> no carryover? SecondCor521 FIRE and Money 9 02-15-2010 10:30 AM
Poll: Average Income Before FIRE PsyopRanger FIRE and Money 63 01-27-2007 11:01 AM
GDP and average income per capita Sam Other topics 19 11-02-2006 12:14 PM
Real World FIRE Income Poll, Average Monthly Draw ShokWaveRider FIRE and Money 14 09-12-2006 11:50 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:29 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.