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Old 05-03-2010, 11:07 AM   #21
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They probably are but I don't care...just keep the microchips and ink off! As far as I'm concerned that is completely wrong.
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:25 PM   #22
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I think the National ID card is just an upgraded Social Security card to be used only for employment and dealing with the Social Security Administration.

I believe this proposal is part of the new legislation on immigration. Less easy to fake than the current SS card and numbers.

So it would not be a substitute for a passport, but would be required for employment or receiving social security.

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Old 05-03-2010, 12:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Nodak View Post
You are right however, the Social Security law states that the card is not to be used for ID.

I think the law was changed awhile back... that is why the states can mandate you show it to them for a drivers license...

I agree it was originally only supposed to be for specific things... and even 20 or so years ago you could get away without giving it out to everybody and their brother... but not now...

I can even remember this older lady who would refuse to give it to anybody but her bank... she was self employed, so did not need to give it to an employer... I had asked for it because she was on the board of a charity... got an earful on this...
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:09 PM   #24
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I think the law was changed awhile back... that is why the states can mandate you show it to them for a drivers license...
Oh. A change in the law would explain things.

I can remember when I got my SS card as a teenager asking my dad about the prominent "Not to be used for identification" admonition. He explained that national I.D. cards had been a political hot button forever. I didn't understand the vehemence of the opposition then; and I still don't.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:27 PM   #25
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I didn't understand the vehemence of the opposition then; and I still don't.
There are those who believe we have some right to or reasonable expectation of privacy -- they are those who did not grow up in or ever live in a small town. Modern life (Internet, etc) has made the whole world a small town and they resent being thrown into that environment (or are in denial). They also sometimes believe in the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, and santa Claus.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:34 PM   #26
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There are those who believe we have some right to or reasonable expectation of privacy -- they are those who did not grow up in or ever live in a small town.
Wow. You might be on to something. I grew up in a small Texas town where everybody knew everybody else's business. The stereotypical "Who's yer daddy?" kind of place. I never got away with anything.

The idea of somebody in Washington knowing my name and address was nothing compared to the perils of what might would surely get back to my mother.
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:00 PM   #27
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So... your fingerprints are not on file somewhere? Is your photograph not on your driver's license? You don't have a credit card? You don't have a cell phone?

Unless you have been able to avoid all of the above... "they" already know everything there is to know about you.
I agree, but it's actually having my fingerprint on my card and using my fingerprint to identify me that is one one my objections. Fingerprints are way too easy to copy and then forge.

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Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I think the National ID card is just an upgraded Social Security card to be used only for employment and dealing with the Social Security Administration.

I believe this proposal is part of the new legislation on immigration. Less easy to fake than the current SS card and numbers.

So it would not be a substitute for a passport, but would be required for employment or receiving social security.

Audrey
I agree. While a US passport is proof of the right to work, there are a great many that are not citizens but are allowed to work, and there are many legal residents that are not allowed to work. e.g. for the first 5 years here DW and my kids were legal aliens but were not allowed to work as they were accompanying me and their SS cards were stamped "Not Eligible For Work".

However, employers today are required to examine and record that each worker they employ is eligible to work. The National ID card is an expensive replacement plus something else to lose or be stolen.

I-9 Form: What Matters to Employers About the Employment Eligibility Verification Form for Employers


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It is against the law for any employer to knowingly hire employees who are not authorized to work in the United States. As part of the employment eligibility verification process, on the first day of employment, employees must provide proof that they are U.S. citizens or nationals, lawful permanent residents, or people otherwise authorized to be employed in the United States.
Within three days of hire, every new employee must show their employer documentation that establishes both proof of their identity and proof of their eligibility to work in the United States. The I-9 Form must be completed for every new employee, regardless of their national origin or whether or not the employee is a U.S. citizen. Under IRCA, if an employer fails to verify the identity and employment authorization of a new employee, by completing the I-9 Form, the employer has violated federal immigration law.
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Acceptable Documents: List A - Documents that Establish Both Identity and Employment Eligibility
  1. U.S. Passport (unexpired or expired.
  2. Certificate of U.S. Citizenship (Form N-560 or N-561).
  3. Certificate of Naturalization (Form N-550 or N-570).
  4. Unexpired foreign passport, with an attached Form I-94 indicating unexpired employment authorization.
  5. Permanent Resident Card or Alien Registration Receipt Card with photograph (Form I-551).
  6. Unexpired Temporary ResidentCard (Form I-688).
  7. Unexpired EmploymentAuthorization Card(Form I-688A).
  8. Unexpired Reentry Permit (Form I-327).
  9. Unexpired Refugee Travel Document (Form 1-571).
  10. Unexpired Employment Authorization Document issued by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) that contains a photograph (Form I-688B).
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:21 PM   #28
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Well I hate the idea that anyone can ask me for id. I am afraid that once there is a national id card then it will be required for everything. Even though it really doesn't change anything the idea repels me.

Since 911 the Pilots license has been upgraded to a plastic card with holographic security and a magnetic stripe. Still have my old paper one. You have to also have a picture ID now. They haven't figured out how to get the pilots pictures on the card yet. Not enough pilots to have an office to go to to get photographed.

No one has ever asked to see it other than when I rent a plane.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:07 PM   #29
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I think having a national identity card would be a good idea. Biometrics, fingerprints, retina scan, DNA- bring it on, the more proof the better.
Legal immigrants, resident aliens, and guest workers would be issued a similar card, but with status and term clearly defined. Foreign passports would work for visitors.

We already have to show ID to use a credit card, board an airplane, vote, serve on a jury, cash a check, check into a hotel, etc. Having a national identity card would not be that big of a deal.

Understand the possibilitiy of civil rights implications, but cannot understand why so may folks get so riled up over the idea of proof of citizenship, with 14 million people in this country illegally; the number growing daily. We need to be able to positively determine who is in this country illegally; providing documentation to those who are natural born citizens or are here legally will allow us to make headway on this issue.

I see this as a step forward, and am sick of all the hand-wringing and pontificating by those who would rather do nothing than risk offending someone who shouldn't be here in the first place.

But, maybe that's just me.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:22 AM   #30
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I don't know what the requirements for DL are in your state but I don't recall submitting proof of citizenship ever when obtaining a Drivers license and I have had one for close to half a century (maybe my memory is going too). I guess 12 million illegal immigrants would argue against the State Drivers license working well as an ID
Actually there are several border states that have an enhanced DL/ID that does work for proof of USC/LPR status. They are relatively new and I'm sure there are many bugs that need to be worked out with them, but they do exist.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:37 AM   #31
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So... your fingerprints are not on file somewhere? Is your photograph not on your driver's license? You don't have a credit card? You don't have a cell phone?

Unless you have been able to avoid all of the above... "they" already know everything there is to know about you.
As an occasional visitor to the US, my fingerprints are on file - presumably forever - merely because I visited the country. Strangely, they take a complete set every time I enter the country.

I also got fingerprinted for my Hong Kong Identity Card - and now use a thumb print to enter and leave HK without having to queue in front of an immigration officer. This actually saves me time at the airports and the ferry terminal.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:06 AM   #32
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Strangely, they take a complete set every time I enter the country.
There is a good reason for this. Part of your fingerprints are the scars you get from little nicks and scrapes due to living. Every time you meet the requirements of having your prints taken, they are taken to ensure the most accurate prints are on file. I used to hate doing them to the inmates in jail when I knew they just got out a couple weeks or days earlier (we had many frequent fliers), until this was explained. One of the other benefits for immigration is proper id of the traveler. Requiring prints to be given ensures nobody has stolen your id and is attempting to use it to gain entry.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:42 AM   #33
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I just have some confusion about how you prove citizenship. If you're 80 years old and the hospital you were born at can't find your birth certificate, and neither can you, and you never had a passport or drivers license, how does that 80 year old prove to the card issuer that they were born in the US?

For that matter, what if you're an 18 year-old orphan and your birth certificate is lost? Or you were born abroad in a foreign hospital but to U.S. Citizen parents? Are we going to have special tribunals where you round up your child-hood friends to come testify that, while they're not sure where you were born, they do know they played tee-ball with you when you were 6 in Syracuse?

I don't like it. Seems to me it will be putting a lot of our most-vunerable citizens through a HUGE hassle in order to do what? Why does an 80 year old southern lady with a drawl, as American as apple pie, need to be bothered with the headaches of trying to track down a document she hasn't seen in sixty years? It just seems like one more way to punish good people who would prefer to be minding their own business.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:54 AM   #34
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It just seems like one more way to punish good people who would prefer to be minding their own business.
That sounds a lot like life in general. How is this different?
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:56 AM   #35
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Um - people have to prove citizenship to get their first driver's license. And you don't contact the hospital for a birth certificate, you contact the state where you were born. The state maintains the records. You can always get more copies when needed.

You are not going to get very far without a birth certificate once you are an adult. All this stuff has already been figured out well before now.

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Old 05-04-2010, 10:02 AM   #36
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I just have some confusion about how you prove citizenship. If you're 80 years old and the hospital you were born at can't find your birth certificate, and neither can you, and you never had a passport or drivers license, how does that 80 year old prove to the card issuer that they were born in the US?

For that matter, what if you're an 18 year-old orphan and your birth certificate is lost? Or you were born abroad in a foreign hospital but to U.S. Citizen parents? Are we going to have special tribunals where you round up your child-hood friends to come testify that, while they're not sure where you were born, they do know they played tee-ball with you when you were 6 in Syracuse?

I don't like it. Seems to me it will be putting a lot of our most-vunerable citizens through a HUGE hassle in order to do what? Why does an 80 year old southern lady with a drawl, as American as apple pie, need to be bothered with the headaches of trying to track down a document she hasn't seen in sixty years? It just seems like one more way to punish good people who would prefer to be minding their own business.
So, let's legislate for the 1/2 of 1% who might be inconvenienced instead of ensuring the other 99.5% enjoy all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship, unencumbered by the social burden of those who are here illegally?
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:13 AM   #37
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As someone who was born overseas, it was a real PITA when I first applied for a passport and my birth certificate, which I had, was not enough--I had to get a copy of my mother's birth certificate too (since she was already deceased, another PITA) and my father's, who was also born overseas but still a U.S. citizen from birth (and that one was an unbelievable PITA). I wonder if I would have to go go through it all again for a mandatory national ID. Oh joy, oh rapture.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:20 AM   #38
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Have you gotten a new job recently

You have to get an I-9 (IIRC... not exactly sure of the form number)... you have to provide two different forms of ID... one that is acceptable is your SS card...

Now, I wish I KNEW where my SS card is located... I have not seen it since I was about 8....
As a person who examined 1,000s of I-9s maintained by employers I am familiar with the documentation requirements.

The new employee must provide documentation that they are authorized to work in the US. A SS card is but one form of evidence. A certificate of birth issued by a state, protectorate, or the State Department are suitable as well. Pick a document from the list. None of these documents establish that the name on the document attaches to the person presenting it.

The employee must also produce identification, a State issued driver's licence or ID card is sufficient. Again, there is a list to choose from. The form provides an area for name changes to assist in resolving differences between the types of documents.

There are some documents that meet both requirements such as a "Green Card" (which is no longer green) or a passport.

Many employers require the production of a SS card because payroll requires it. This is because people make mistakes when providing this information and they get tired of bird-dogging problems when SS Administration says there is an error. Often it is because name differences, sometimes a "borrowed" SS number, but more often because of name changes stemming from marriage or use when SSA hasn't been informed. This document cannot be required as a part of the I-9 process.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:39 AM   #39
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Um - people have to prove citizenship to get their first driver's license. And you don't contact the hospital for a birth certificate, you contact the state where you were born. The state maintains the records. You can always get more copies when needed. (snip)
Audrey
But there's a risk people may not believe you when you've only got a copy from the state rather than your original certificate.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:56 AM   #40
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But there's a risk people may not believe you when you've only got a copy from the state rather than your original certificate.
Every copy I have ever seen has had an Official Seal (Notary, etc) -- generally embossed on the document.
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