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Old 05-04-2010, 11:14 AM   #41
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As someone who was born overseas, it was a real PITA when I first applied for a passport and my birth certificate, which I had, was not enough--I had to get a copy of my mother's birth certificate too (since she was already deceased, another PITA) and my father's, who was also born overseas but still a U.S. citizen from birth (and that one was an unbelievable PITA). I wonder if I would have to go go through it all again for a mandatory national ID. Oh joy, oh rapture.
I expect your passport is all you need. You've already done all the work!

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Old 05-04-2010, 11:16 AM   #42
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But there's a risk people may not believe you when you've only got a copy from the state rather than your original certificate.
Fortunately, I don't have to prove anything to "those people". The govt agencies will accept it.

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Old 05-04-2010, 11:40 AM   #43
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The State is the issuing authority for a birth certificate. There is not ONE certificate of birth, States routinely produce multiple copies for various needs to those who are entitled to receive them. This document is produced as a result of a document issued by the hospital and signed by a physician and sent directly to the State agency responsible for maintaining the data. No one else is entitled to that document, the parents are not given a copy. A certificate issued by a hospital with a embossed seal, even if it has the infant's footprint and delivering physician's signature is not a legal birth certificate, they can easily be forged. I have cited employers for failing to comply with I-9 requirements when they used the hospital certificate, unless that hospital is a State or military facility.

By the way, the same is true of death certificates.
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:14 PM   #44
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The State is the issuing authority for a birth certificate. There is not ONE certificate of birth, States routinely produce multiple copies for various needs to those who are entitled to receive them. This document is produced as a result of a document issued by the hospital and signed by a physician and sent directly to the State agency responsible for maintaining the data. No one else is entitled to that document, the parents are not given a copy. A certificate issued by a hospital with a embossed seal, even if it has the infant's footprint and delivering physician's signature is not a legal birth certificate, they can easily be forged. I have cited employers for failing to comply with I-9 requirements when they used the hospital certificate, unless that hospital is a State or military facility.

By the way, the same is true of death certificates.
People try to make this into a big deal, but getting a certified copy of your birth certificate is simple- I ordered one from the county clerk's office in the state where I claim to have been born...
A state-certified copy is as good as an original- all I needed for getting my US passport - proof of citizenship, as far as the feds are concerned.
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:34 PM   #45
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A certified copy of a birth certificate issued from the State you were born is as good as the original. When our children were born in England we opted for the much cheaper "short form" of birth certificate as we liked to LBYM and had no idea we would ever need more than the short form. These were not good enough once we applied for "Green Cards" (actually they were pink back in 1992) so we applied for certified copies from the UK Registrar and these were acceptable to the INS.

Once you have a US Passport or Certificate of Naturalization you don't need to produce the birth certificates again.

As to finger printing, the FBI used to claim not to keep them on record once they've been used to do a background check - I think the privacy laws prevent retention of biometric data such as fingerprints, DNA etc for people with no criminal record. This was true in 1998 when we applied for our US Citizenship. My interview came through 9 months after applying, and after the interview and test I asked about the status of DW's application. The official went off to check. When she came back she said the application had not gone through because the fingerprints taken and submitted by the State police were not good enough and that the ones taken when we got our Green Cards were destroyed after the cards were issued. (even though the card itself contained one of the prints). btw, you (or your lawyers) cannot call the INS to check on progress of any application.

I can relate multiple stories of agony trying to deal with the INS, and that is just me and my family, including the first two applications for a Green Card. The applications were handled by the company lawyers. In the first instance, after 6 months I got a one line letter saying that I hadn't stated that I was not a member of the Nazi party between 1933 and 1945. the fact that they accepted my birth certificate showing that I was born in 1955 was irrelevant. (okay, my fault for missing a check-box, but, sheesh!)

After re-applying it took 7 months and I got a single line letter of refusal because my I-94 submitted with the application had expired - this was true, an I-94 is only good for 12 months and before it had expired I had re-applied and got a new one (as I did several times a year because a new one is issued every time you enter the country and I traveled a lot on business), but their process didn't seem capable of managing this. For the 3rd attempt my company (which existed in Louisiana and their law firm firm was in New Orleans) hired an immigration specialist lawyer out of Philadelphia who said that although the INS office for Louisiana was in New Orleans, she recommended applying through Lincoln, Nebraska, where they were much less busy. That worked like a charm.

Since our children (both under 18) were automatically citizens once we were citizens, we applied for their papers and 6 weeks after we had taken them in for their final interviews their papers had still not come through, even though they had been promised same or next day. As a new US Citizen I called the office of my Congressman, left a message and received a reply 2 days later saying that they had been onto the INS who had said the person that types up the certificates had been off sick. Two days after that message we received the certificates in the mail.

I would expect the expansion of whatever government office to manage the National ID system to be just as over-worked and inefficient as the INS.
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Old 05-04-2010, 02:20 PM   #46
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I've had a national ID card now since 2007 when I got my second citizenship here in Europe. I think it's great, but I do understand why people are hesitant about it. But as pointed out before, if you have a credit card, a drivers license, a bank account, etc, then the Feds have everything they need on you anyway, so why not simply things for the government to help reduce spending.

Here's why I like it - it has a chip in it so with an ID card reader attached to my computer I can, from my computer anywhere in the world: vote in local and national elections, I can digitally sign any legal document sent to me via email (using DigiDoc), I can purchase tickets on public transportation (the train attendant just reads my card to see I paid), I can pay and/or amend my taxes online, I bank more securely using it in combination with my user name and passwords plus loads of other things. Basically it's my official ID online and I can do virtually anything from my computer with it that would normally require me to be somewhere in person and sign a document. In a way, it's gives me much more freedom, which is opposite of what you might think it does.

Is there potential for abuse. I presume there is with anything, but don't know of any particular problems with the national ID. They've been around a long time and in use in most modern countries, so they are well aware of any problems.

Speaking from a European point of view, personal privacy and personal information is very restricted here in the EU and privacy laws are much more stringent than in the U.S. (since the Patriot Act for sure) so there are tough laws in place as to what information can be stored and retained by government agencies. Not to say that abuse doesn't happen, but it wouldn't be any worse than what happens in the U.S. today from what I can tell.

Here's what I don't like about my national ID: My drivers license isn't incorporated into it. I wish they would do that so I only have one important card to carry around.

I've heard the argument that America is big and diverse so it would be hard to implement, but almost all 27 EU countries so far as I know have one and that population is more than the US with an even more diverse illegal population.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:39 AM   #47
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Trek--Is your card an EU card or a national card?
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:26 PM   #48
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Trek--Is your card an EU card or a national card?
It's an Estonian national ID card, but as I understand it, it can be used as ID in any EU country, though a passport is still recommended when traveling.

My Estonian passport however is an EU document and in fact says European Union on the cover.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:03 PM   #49
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A national ID card has advantages. A single common identification is much easier and less costly for business to implement. Training is simpler for ID review and approval, and more difficult to produce a fraudulent ID. Much easier for recording, analyzing and sharing data for law enforcement. Much easier to enable and control voting. Implementation would generate jobs.

Of course, some folks feel that there is a privacy issue – as if they had some privacy now that they would lose. It’s more fear of conspiracy than real loss.

One very negative experience I have had with national ID cards – in Venezuela expired cards have been denied renewal and lost cards have been denied replacement to individuals that are considered opponents or are on a “black list” which is not at all secret and is very large. They are then unable to conduct certain transactions or denied opportunities - a nasty and very dangerous situation.
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:55 AM   #50
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Training is simpler for ID review and approval, and more difficult to produce a fraudulent ID. Much easier for recording, analyzing and sharing data for law enforcement.
I think your first sentence is incorrect. There isn't an ID out there that can't be altered or forged. The big difference is when it is a state ID, only a small portion of the US population has to have a replacement made. If it is national ID then everyone must get a new one. Typically those are in the form of a DL and have to be replaced every four to 10 years anyway. I don't think I've received the same form of DL any time I've renewed my license, it always changes. Passports are changed every few years, when the forged documents start getting too good. Or new updates are developed that would make the document more difficult to alter or forge.

The second sentence is one of the reasons many people are against it. Having LE have easy access to much of your information, puts a lot of power in the hands of the government.

If the national ID is required then by all rights the government should have to provide it "free". That would mean increases in costs somewhere else. If the national ID is voluntary then I don't think many people would get one unless there is a huge carrot offered.
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Old 05-06-2010, 11:12 AM   #51
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I think your first sentence is incorrect
Lets see.
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Training is simpler for ID review and approval, and more difficult to produce a fraudulent ID.
There are many different ID possibilities now, beginning with 50 distinct state drivers licenses. It is far easier to train people to review one single type of identification than it is to train them to review 100’s. By reducing the number of ID alternatives it becomes more difficult for most people to forge one. We’re not talking about master forger – think forged check cashing.

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The second sentence is one of the reasons many people are against it. Having LE have easy access to much of your information, puts a lot of power in the hands of the government.
It doesn’t give anyone any new power or authority, or even new information. We are all identified already. Our current identification system is confusing and leads to errors and costly overhead. It also lacks clear and common national standards.

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If the national ID is required then by all rights the government should have to provide it "free". That would mean increases in costs somewhere else. If the national ID is voluntary then I don't think many people would get one unless there is a huge carrot offered.
IMHO there should be no cost to people, paid for by federal gov’t. Mandatory.
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Old 05-06-2010, 11:47 AM   #52
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Lets see. There are many different ID possibilities now, beginning with 50 distinct state drivers licenses. It is far easier to train people to review one single type of identification than it is to train them to review 100’s. By reducing the number of ID alternatives it becomes more difficult for most people to forge one. We’re not talking about master forger – think forged check cashing.
As it was explained when I attended a fraudulent documents course. Look at quality printing and fine line detail. ALL documents have these, it doesn't matter where they are from. So if they all have them a person can identify a fraud quickly no matter who issued it.

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It doesn’t give anyone any new power or authority, or even new information. We are all identified already. Our current identification system is confusing and leads to errors and costly overhead. It also lacks clear and common national standards.
If it would be easier to collect analyze or share data with LE then it does give more power to the government. Knowledge is power. Granted much of our data is shared, but that is shared from state to state, not collected at the federal level. State to state is where the data should be kept, not the federal level.

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IMHO there should be no cost to people, paid for by federal gov’t. Mandatory.
It doesn't matter if the government provides it "free". The government takes money from the population, so it would have to result in increase expenditures for the government and an increase in taxes collected at the federal level. Currently there is no requirement for US citizens to have any type of ID, period. That is the way it should be. Why should I have to give my information to the government if I don't want to? I shouldn't. I have a Constitutional right to not share any of my information with the government. I don't need to have a driver's license, if I don't drive an automobile. I don't need to have any ID if I don't do things that require ID. In my current position the only time I use any ID is to get to and from work. If I did not work there I would not need a government ID for anything. I have access to public transportation and don't need my DL. I haven't had a pay check since 1991, it has all been direct deposit. I didn't need ID when I opened my bank accounts. I did need my social security card and birth certificate, but that is it. Many people don't really need their social security number either, but I wouldn't want to live that type of life.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:26 PM   #53
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As it was explained when I attended a fraudulent documents course. Look at quality printing and fine line detail. ALL documents have these, it doesn't matter where they are from. So if they all have them a person can identify a fraud quickly no matter who issued it.



If it would be easier to collect analyze or share data with LE then it does give more power to the government. Knowledge is power. Granted much of our data is shared, but that is shared from state to state, not collected at the federal level. State to state is where the data should be kept, not the federal level.



It doesn't matter if the government provides it "free". The government takes money from the population, so it would have to result in increase expenditures for the government and an increase in taxes collected at the federal level. Currently there is no requirement for US citizens to have any type of ID, period. That is the way it should be. Why should I have to give my information to the government if I don't want to? I shouldn't. I have a Constitutional right to not share any of my information with the government. I don't need to have a driver's license, if I don't drive an automobile. I don't need to have any ID if I don't do things that require ID. In my current position the only time I use any ID is to get to and from work. If I did not work there I would not need a government ID for anything. I have access to public transportation and don't need my DL. I haven't had a pay check since 1991, it has all been direct deposit. I didn't need ID when I opened my bank accounts. I did need my social security card and birth certificate, but that is it. Many people don't really need their social security number either, but I wouldn't want to live that type of life.
I guess you have not opend up a new banking account recently....

The 'know your customer' laws has each bank as the local cop...
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:52 PM   #54
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I was unaware that opening a bank account required social security card and birth certificate. I opened my account 50 years ago when I was 13 and there was no ID of any kind needed; I just gave a copy of my signature. That bank is over 120 years old and still operates under their territorial charter; they have no branches and only about 4 employees.
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Old 05-06-2010, 06:13 PM   #55
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Why should I have to give my information to the government if I don't want to? I shouldn't.
Because the government is providing you with essential services-national defense, social services, representation in the three branches of government, schooling, infrastructure,etc-the costs of which you of which you cannot just opt out of.

If I understand your argument, Why should I have to pay taxes for schools? I don't have any kids. Why should my taxes pay for roads on Guam? I'll never drive on them... etc. etc etc.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:10 AM   #56
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I guess you have not opend up a new banking account recently....

The 'know your customer' laws has each bank as the local cop...
The one I have now I opened in 2006.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:20 AM   #57
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Because the government is providing you with essential services-national defense, social services, representation in the three branches of government, schooling, infrastructure,etc-the costs of which you of which you cannot just opt out of.

If I understand your argument, Why should I have to pay taxes for schools? I don't have any kids. Why should my taxes pay for roads on Guam? I'll never drive on them... etc. etc etc.
You are misunderstanding my point. Government involvement in my life should be at a minimum. Anything above that is voluntary. If I wish to go live on a mountain somewhere and not have a job, the government will not have any involvement with me or my life. I choose not to live on a mountain, so I choose to let the government have some involvement in my life. I choose to have a job, so I choose to pay taxes. I choose to own property, so I choose to pay school tax. If I squatted in the back woods somewhere, then I would pay none of those. Requiring everyone to have a national ID simply for living in the US takes away my ability to choose to not have the government involved with my life. That I can not support. As a law enforcement officer, I understand how simple everything becomes if everyone must have an ID, but I can not and will not support mandating everyone have a national ID.
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:55 AM   #58
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Requiring everyone to have a national ID simply for living in the US takes away my ability to choose to not have the government involved with my life. That I can not support.
This is the part I don’t get. You have a birth certificate and a social security number. You are already recorded and identified. In what way does a national ID card change that, make it worse or increase gov’t involvement in your life?
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:25 AM   #59
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lets-retire, think of national ID card as a 21-century social-security card. It's just harder to forge and might get you some perks like the online advantages mentioned by Trek - I certainly would rather vote online than stand in line for hours.

Also, you are saying you would not be paying taxes if you lived on a mountain? Well, you would be breaking the law, would not you (assuming you have income requiring you to pay taxes)? In the same way you can live on a mountain and not have national ID card if it's required... you'd be breaking the law the same way.

P.S. A local branch of US Bank requires social security card for some reason to open and to close accounts...
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:16 AM   #60
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P.S. A local branch of US Bank requires social security card for some reason to open and to close accounts...
That completes the circuit of you, the bank, and the IRS.
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