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Old 05-07-2010, 10:18 AM   #61
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The one I have now I opened in 2006.
Surprising then...
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:15 AM   #62
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[QUOTE=lets-retire;934124]

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If I wish to go live on a mountain somewhere and not have a job, the government will not have any involvement with me or my life.
Not true. If you are living on private property you would have to pay property taxes. If you are living on public property, ie National Forest or BLM you are squatting. If you are living off game taken out of season, you are poaching - thereby breaking the law. Your doing so invites government involvement in your idyllic backwoods life.

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Requiring everyone to have a national ID simply for living in the US takes away my ability to choose to not have the government involved with my life.
Not true. By "simply living in the USA" you are entitled to live under the mantle of essential government services, ie national defense, infrastructure, schools, civil rights, etc. - rights, services, and programs afforded to all citizens, of every color and stripe. As a citizen, you don't get to opt out of the programs you don't like and enjoy the ones you do. Doesn't work that way.

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As a law enforcement officer, I understand how simple everything becomes if everyone must have an ID, but I can not and will not support mandating everyone have a national ID.
Wow
Q: As an officer of the law, what is the first thing you ask for of someone whom you suspect of breaking a law?
A: ID
What would you do if you contacted me for suspicion of committing a criime, i.e. squatting on National Forest property and I refused to provide you with acceptable ID? I suppose that you would just let me go, because you support the notion that I should not be required to produce ID to allow you to ascertain that I should be treated as a fellow citiizen? Under your logic you should just leave me alone, since I opted out of society by living in the backwoods, thereby giving me the right to ignore you and not respect your laws. Identifying yourself as a law enforcement officer (Flash that badge and ID...) means nothing to me; since I, too have embraced your personal "No-ID" concept. And, good luck cashing your civil service paycheck (financed by your fellow citizens who did provide ID and SSN to get a job, pay taxes, etc.) without proper ID. How did you get the job in the first place, I bet you told them in the interview that you didn't believe in showing or carrying ID; they said "cool, you're hired!"

And, now for for the $64,000 Question-as a law enforcement officer, if a national ID is implemented, will you enforce the law? Or selectively choose the laws you aree with?
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Old 05-07-2010, 11:17 AM   #63
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Michaelb--With an ID you would have to provide more than simply you SSN. Perhaps an address. Since it is a card everyone would have to have and everyone has to have insurance, maybe it could double as your insurance card, or even you social security card. With modern technology almost anything could be put on the card to make it easier for you to conduct your business. If I don't want the government to know anything about me as it stands right now all they have is my birth certificate, which is good for information for a very short period of time and my social security number. The latter is voluntary. Again if i go live on a mountain and don't have a job then there is no way to track using my social security number. As a Puerto Rican friend described it, his social security number wasn't used for anything until he moved to the mainland.

smjsl--As soon as something comes out on the net it is no longer secure, period. When a new security system is implemented it is obsolete about as fast as it goes on line. Someone is always attempting to hack or destroy security systems either for fun or for profit. In the scenario I was talking about living on a mountain would entail not having a job. It would essentially be living like the Indians lived several decades ago. They seemed to get along fine without income or stores. Not that I would want to live like that, but if I wanted to I could. No taxes would be due since there isn't any income to tax. You are getting my point, slowly. Currently I can decide to go live on the mountain and be fine without ever having to see civilization again. If I go live on the mountain and are required to have a national ID, I would have to come down periodically to renew the ID or be breaking the law because I am alive and don't have the required ID.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:09 PM   #64
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smjsl--As soon as something comes out on the net it is no longer secure, period. When a new security system is implemented it is obsolete about as fast as it goes on line. Someone is always attempting to hack or destroy security systems either for fun or for profit. In the scenario I was talking about living on a mountain would entail not having a job. It would essentially be living like the Indians lived several decades ago. They seemed to get along fine without income or stores. Not that I would want to live like that, but if I wanted to I could. No taxes would be due since there isn't any income to tax. You are getting my point, slowly. Currently I can decide to go live on the mountain and be fine without ever having to see civilization again. If I go live on the mountain and are required to have a national ID, I would have to come down periodically to renew the ID or be breaking the law because I am alive and don't have the required ID.
You don't have to use your ID card online if you don't want to. My point is that requiring ID card is the same as requiring SSN card. If you lived on a mountain and had to have SSN card, same applies to this ID card instead of the SSN card - think of it as an updated version of it. I don't understand why "having to renew ID card" is any different then "having to renew SSN card" - same requirement and neither may have to exist.

I think Westernskies response has a lot of very good points too.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:15 PM   #65
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Michaelb--With an ID you would have to provide more than simply you SSN. Perhaps an address. Since it is a card everyone would have to have and everyone has to have insurance, maybe it could double as your insurance card, or even you social security card. With modern technology almost anything could be put on the card to make it easier for you to conduct your business. If I don't want the government to know anything about me as it stands right now all they have is my birth certificate, which is good for information for a very short period of time and my social security number. The latter is voluntary. Again if i go live on a mountain and don't have a job then there is no way to track using my social security number. As a Puerto Rican friend described it, his social security number wasn't used for anything until he moved to the mainland.
My experience with a national ID card is that it is that and nothing else. All those other institutions, like banks and insurance, don't use is as a substitute, they just use it to verify identity.

Social security is voluntary but only if your parents choose not to enroll (and tax deduct) you, and you subsequently opt to leave US society while remaining in the country or live in the US unlawfully. While this may be a possibility, it is anti-social. When you choose to live outside of society your opinion on the ID card is no longer valid because the ID card is a social record.

Note – I’m not saying your argument is not valid. I am saying it is an argument against society, not against an ID card.
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Old 05-07-2010, 05:11 PM   #66
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Note – I’m not saying your argument is not valid. I am saying it is an argument against society, not against an ID card.
A law enforcement officer arguing so vehemently against the laws of society concerns me more than the possibility of a national ID card.
But, maybe that's just me.
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:09 AM   #67
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I find it very interesting that people who buck the system by retireing early can't understand that a person does not have to live within society if they don't want to and try to find every excuse in the book to say it can't be done.

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Not true. If you are living on private property you would have to pay property taxes. If you are living on public property, ie National Forest or BLM you are squatting. If you are living off game taken out of season, you are poaching - thereby breaking the law. Your doing so invites government involvement in your idyllic backwoods life.
Most national forests allow people to camp within the park for no more than 30 days at a time. There are many places where national forests and state forests border each other. What's to keep a person from camping in the national lands then moving on to state lands for a while, then maybe even private property (with the permission of the land owner)? No laws broken there. The only animals protected by hunting laws are game animals and fur animals. That means a person and catch kill and eat rats, mice, chipmunks, ground hogs, porcupines, 'possums, snakes, cats, dogs, armadillos, minnows, frogs, lizards, bugs, the list goes on and on. The law does not protect fruits and vegetables, so that leaves, apples, berries, onions, oranges, grapefruits, coconuts, dandelions and I'm sure many more that I forgot. The point is it is very possible to live outside society and not break the laws of the society.


[QUOTE=Westernskies;934214] Not true. By "simply living in the USA" you are entitled to live under the mantle of essential government services, ie national defense, infrastructure, schools, civil rights, etc. - rights, services, and programs afforded to all citizens, of every color and stripe. As a citizen, you don't get to opt out of the programs you don't like and enjoy the ones you do. Doesn't work that way. [/qoute]

Sorry, but as it stands now having the government in your life is very voluntary. Most people don't want to live without it, but it is possible. Just because you don't see or understand how to do it does not mean it is impossible. Many people don't see or understand how to retire early, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

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Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Wow
Q: As an officer of the law, what is the first thing you ask for of someone whom you suspect of breaking a law?
A: ID
What would you do if you contacted me for suspicion of committing a criime, i.e. squatting on National Forest property and I refused to provide you with acceptable ID? I suppose that you would just let me go, because you support the notion that I should not be required to produce ID to allow you to ascertain that I should be treated as a fellow citiizen? Under your logic you should just leave me alone, since I opted out of society by living in the backwoods, thereby giving me the right to ignore you and not respect your laws. Identifying yourself as a law enforcement officer (Flash that badge and ID...) means nothing to me; since I, too have embraced your personal "No-ID" concept. And, good luck cashing your civil service paycheck (financed by your fellow citizens who did provide ID and SSN to get a job, pay taxes, etc.) without proper ID. How did you get the job in the first place, I bet you told them in the interview that you didn't believe in showing or carrying ID; they said "cool, you're hired!"

And, now for for the $64,000 Question-as a law enforcement officer, if a national ID is implemented, will you enforce the law? Or selectively choose the laws you aree with?
We are not talking about how I cash my check, we are talking about a person deciding to live outside society. I have stated I chose not to live that type of life. To answer your question though each agency has procedures on how to handle someone who does not have an ID. It is not required to possess any type of identification at all if the person does not want one. I'm not going to get into how each of the agencies I have worked for handles the no ID issue, it can be a rather long discussion and can get a bit complicated, because often times it is left up to the officer to use judgment. The overall general guidance is no ID is required to be possessed. I don't have to worry about your 64k dollar question, because the law is very clear were I work that some form of proof of citizenship is required, but I work in a very different law enforcement position.
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:14 AM   #68
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You don't have to use your ID card online if you don't want to. My point is that requiring ID card is the same as requiring SSN card. If you lived on a mountain and had to have SSN card, same applies to this ID card instead of the SSN card - think of it as an updated version of it. I don't understand why "having to renew ID card" is any different then "having to renew SSN card" - same requirement and neither may have to exist.

I think Westernskies response has a lot of very good points too.
I think see your point and I think Michaelb is making the same point. You are essentially talking about having a Social Security Card with picture on it. I don't have a problem with that. The difference between the ID and a Social Security Card would be the fact that the ID would by nature contain more information on it, like date of birth, address, etc. As it is now your Social Security Card does not contain any of that information on it. There is no way to locate your address using the Social Security number without going through records of private companies. If you chose not to have any of those records (no credit, banks accounts, etc) then the number is just a number linked to your name.
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Old 05-08-2010, 06:26 AM   #69
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A law enforcement officer arguing so vehemently against the laws of society concerns me more than the possibility of a national ID card.
But, maybe that's just me.
I'm not arguing against the laws of society, I'm arguing against the expansion of the federal government. The federal government is running trillion dollar deficits. Reports coming out about the budget neutral health insurance reform bill just passed seems to be a little less than budget neutral, which is going to lead to an even more unbalanced budget. The last thing we need is more legislation to expand the federal government when we can't even pay for the programs currently on the books.

Just for the record when performing my job my opinions of the laws mean little. I see no harm in smoking MJ in a private home if the people are adults, but I've made many arrests for doing just that. And no I've never smoked it and I have no desire to smoke it. I'm actually allergic to THC and it causes my skin, eyes, and mucus membranes to burn and turn a bright red. I'm almost as good as the dogs when it comes to finding it. My opinion of a law is irrelevant when I am performing my job. I do what I am told to do by the society through their elected leaders. You will find few officers who support every law out there, but they will still enforce every law like they are supposed to be enforced.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:51 AM   #70
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I think see your point and I think Michaelb is making the same point. You are essentially talking about having a Social Security Card with picture on it. I don't have a problem with that. The difference between the ID and a Social Security Card would be the fact that the ID would by nature contain more information on it, like date of birth, address, etc. As it is now your Social Security Card does not contain any of that information on it. There is no way to locate your address using the Social Security number without going through records of private companies. If you chose not to have any of those records (no credit, banks accounts, etc) then the number is just a number linked to your name.
This is my issue with an ID card. ID theft has come to be so problematic that the law was changed some years back that DL's should not show SS #'s (unless the recipient wanted it), businesses could not use SS #'s as your account # etc. (Blue Cross had to change our account #'s and issue new cards).

Medicare cards are still not in compliance and if you lose or have stolen your Medicare card then the thief has your name and SS #.

IF they could come up with an ID card that did not display vital info and was not readable by anyone I would have few reservations. When the UK began embedding microchips in their passports with much more info in them it didn't take long for thieves to come up with a reader that could get the information just by passing by close enough.

Steve Boggan and a computer expert crack the new hi-tech passport code | Politics | The Guardian

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Three million Britons have been issued with the new hi-tech passport, designed to frustrate terrorists and fraudsters. So why did Steve Boggan and a friendly computer expert find it so easy to break the security codes?
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:06 AM   #71
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Let's get back to the beginning. The ID proposal in the OP involves proving you're a legal worker. It has nothing to do with 80 year olds or hermits living on mountains.

I think it's a good idea for a country with millions of illegal workers.

I already carry an ID almost any time I leave the house, I don't see the a big problem with showing a "legal work status" ID when I change jobs.

I understand that nothing is counterfeit proof, but I think we can do a lot better than we're doing today.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:13 AM   #72
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Let's get back to the beginning. The ID proposal in the OP involves proving you're a legal worker. It has nothing to do with 80 year olds or hermits living on mountains.

I think it's a good idea for a country with millions of illegal workers.

I already carry an ID almost any time I leave the house, I don't see the a big problem with showing a "legal work status" ID when I change jobs.

I understand that nothing is counterfeit proof, but I think we can do a lot better than we're doing today.
But, that is already the law - see the posts above above about the legal ID required when changing jobs and the requirement of the employer to examine it and complete form I-9. In most cases either a US Passport, a Resident Alien ID card (Green Card), or a Foreign Passport with a valid work visa is all that is required.
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Old 05-08-2010, 01:17 PM   #73
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A law enforcement officer arguing so vehemently against the laws of society concerns me more than the possibility of a national ID card.
But, maybe that's just me.
I see this as a discussion based on a concern, not antisocial belief or behaviour. Actually, it is very sociable.

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I find it very interesting that people who buck the system by retireing early can't understand that a person does not have to live within society if they don't want to and try to find every excuse in the book to say it can't be done.
I am not challenging wanting to live outside of society. That’s fine. It has nothing to do with an ID card, though.

Quote:
I think see your point and I think Michaelb is making the same point. You are essentially talking about having a Social Security Card with picture on it. I don't have a problem with that. The difference between the ID and a Social Security Card would be the fact that the ID would by nature contain more information on it, like date of birth, address, etc. As it is now your Social Security Card does not contain any of that information on it. There is no way to locate your address using the Social Security number without going through records of private companies. If you chose not to have any of those records (no credit, banks accounts, etc) then the number is just a number linked to your name.
For me an ID card is just that. Name, ID, date of birth. Nothing else. I’m not saying they won’t try for more stuff but I would not support anything additional.
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:31 PM   #74
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But, that is already the law - see the posts above above about the legal ID required when changing jobs and the requirement of the employer to examine it and complete form I-9. In most cases either a US Passport, a Resident Alien ID card (Green Card), or a Foreign Passport with a valid work visa is all that is required.
I was born in the US and haven't changed jobs in a long time. I always figured that I would use my birth certificate as an ID if I changed jobs. Doesn't that work anymore?
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:37 PM   #75
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I was born in the US and haven't changed jobs in a long time. I always figured that I would use my birth certificate as an ID if I changed jobs. Doesn't that work anymore?
Yes, but you also need a picture ID with your birth certificate such as a driver's license.


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Documentation
A variety of documents acceptable for I-9 purposes. The employee must supply either:
  • One document that establishes both identity and employment eligibility (on List A on the I-9) OR
  • One document that establishes identity (on List B), together with another document that establishes employment eligibility (on List C)
  • All documentation must be unexpired as of April 3, 2009[2]
Documents that may be used under "List A" of the I-9 form to establish both identity and employment eligibility include:
  • U.S. Passport
  • U.S. Passport Card
  • An unexpired foreign passport with an I-551 stamp, or with Form I-94 attached which indicates an unexpired employment authorization
  • A Permanent Resident Card (often called a "green card") or Alien Registration Receipt Card with photograph
  • An Unexpired Temporary Resident Card
  • An Unexpired Employment Authorization Card
  • An Unexpired Employment Authorization Document issued by the Dept. of Homeland Security that includes a photograph (Form I-766)
Documents that may be used under "List B" of the I-9 to establish identity include:
  • Driver's license or I.D. card issued by a U.S. state or outlying possession of the U.S., provided it contains a photograph or identifying information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color and address.
  • Federal or state I.D. card provided it contains a photograph or identifying information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color and address.
  • School I.D. with photograph
* Voter's registration card no longer acceptable
  • U.S. Armed Services identification card or draft record
  • U.S. Coast Guard Merchant Mariner Card
  • Native American tribal document
  • Driver's license issued by a Canadian government authority
For individuals under the age of 18 only, the following documents may be used to establish identity:
  • School record or report card
  • Clinic, doctor or hospital record
  • Day-care or nursery school record
Employees who supply an item from List B must also supply an item from List C
Documents that may be used under "List C" of the I-9 to establish employment eligibility include:
  • A U.S. Social Security card issued by the Social Security Administration (Note: cards that specify "not valid for employment" are not acceptable.)
  • A birth certificate issued by the U.S. State Department (Form FS-545 or Form DS-1350) Original or certified copy of a birth certificate from the U.S. or an outlying possession of the U.S., bearing an official seal
  • Native American tribal document
  • U.S. Citizen I.D. Card (Form I-197)
  • An I.D. Card for the use of a Resident Citizen in the United States (Form I-179)
  • An unexpired employment authorization card issued by the Dept. of Homeland Security (other than those included on List A)
U.S. citizens who have lost their social security card can apply for a duplicate at the Social Security Administration.
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Old 05-10-2010, 04:55 AM   #76
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I am not challenging wanting to live outside of society. That’s fine. It has nothing to do with an ID card, though.
Actually when I used the example it did have bearing on the discussion. My point was in the past the government has only required the population to do certain things like, pay taxes or get a DL if they met certain qualifications like, receive pay or drive a vehicle. It seems our government has decided that they can take action against us if we fail to do things simply because we are changing O2 into CO2. The health insurance issue is one rather poor example example, but it is a step in that direction. This talk about requiring a national ID is actually a very good example. If we are alive we have to have a national ID or what? How is that going to be enforced? A fine, jail time, if there isn't a punishment there will be little compliance. That was my initial point, before the example was attacked as not being possible.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:25 AM   #77
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Yes, but you also need a picture ID with your birth certificate such as a driver's license.
How does the employer know that the birth certificate and the photo ID are both valid and both for the same person?

I've assumed that the millions of illegal workers are using some combination of forgeries and illegal obtained valid birth certificates to prove identity, and that employers aren't document specialists and hence can't tell that they are hiring illegals.

I got my valid BC by mail, without presenting myself in person, without proving that I was really the person on the BC. It seems that it would be a reasonably simple matter to get a valid BC, use it to get a valid DL, then use them to prove you are eligible for work.

So the "employment eligibility ID" made sense to me since I figured the federal gov't is better at verifying documents than the typical employer. Am I missing something?
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:51 AM   #78
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How does the employer know that the birth certificate and the photo ID are both valid and both for the same person?

I've assumed that the millions of illegal workers are using some combination of forgeries and illegal obtained valid birth certificates to prove identity, and that employers aren't document specialists and hence can't tell that they are hiring illegals.

I got my valid BC by mail, without presenting myself in person, without proving that I was really the person on the BC. It seems that it would be a reasonably simple matter to get a valid BC, use it to get a valid DL, then use them to prove you are eligible for work.

So the "employment eligibility ID" made sense to me since I figured the federal gov't is better at verifying documents than the typical employer. Am I missing something?
It is all to do with verification. Employers could easily verify if the SS number is valid but obviously many don't, and when tax returns are submitted the Federal Government does not validate them either which is why millions of $ are collected for SS every year that are not assigned to anyone. As long as illegals work and pay taxes the government doesn't care.

I would have no problem with a National ID if I thought it would be secure and wouldn't cost $Billions to implement and would be enforced.

http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/cir/cir021.htm

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Contrary to common perceptions, the majority of undocumented noncitizen workers actually work “on the books” for employers who require that their employees have a Social Security number (SSN). Undocumented people generally cannot obtain a valid “authorized for employment” SSN. Therefore, many must use an invalid SSN if they are to work in the U.S. As a result, they and their employers pay billions of dollars in payroll taxes each year, boosting the Social Security and Medicare trust funds from which everyone benefits.[1] Like any other workers, undocumented workers are both required and encouraged by the federal government to pay payroll and income taxes.[2] According to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service, undocumented noncitizens paid almost $50 billion in federal taxes from 1996 to 2003.[3] Recent reports from across the country indicate that during the 2007 tax season, record numbers of undocumented people filed tax returns.[4]
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:35 PM   #79
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It is all to do with verification. Employers could easily verify if the SS number is valid but obviously many don't, and when tax returns are submitted the Federal Government does not validate them either which is why millions of $ are collected for SS every year that are not assigned to anyone. As long as illegals work and pay taxes the government doesn't care.

I would have no problem with a National ID if I thought it would be secure and wouldn't cost $Billions to implement and would be enforced.
That's kind of my thought. I figured it would be more secure (harder to fake) than the current system of birth certificate and driver's license. I assume the cost would be "billions" since just $10 per worker would be $1.6 billion. I'm thinking the cost would be worth it.

OTOH, following your link, I got this "Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...migration.html

If green cards are so easy to counterfeit that they are available for $150 on any street corner, then I wouldn't do anything with an ID for native-birth citizens. We need to figure out how to make green cards more secure first.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:15 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Independent View Post
That's kind of my thought. I figured it would be more secure (harder to fake) than the current system of birth certificate and driver's license. I assume the cost would be "billions" since just $10 per worker would be $1.6 billion. I'm thinking the cost would be worth it.

OTOH, following your link, I got this "Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...migration.html

If green cards are so easy to counterfeit that they are available for $150 on any street corner, then I wouldn't do anything with an ID for native-birth citizens. We need to figure out how to make green cards more secure first.
Exactly.

I posted earlier that within months of the change to the new "smart" British Passports with embedded microchip they had been decoded.

Recently, agents believed to be from Israel forged and traveled on Forged British Passports

Quote:
Mr. Miliband said that the investigators “were drawn to the conclusion” that the fake passports used by the suspects in the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh had been made from copies of genuine passports after those documents had been “handed over for inspection to individuals linked to Israel.”
Whether or not it was Israeli agents, the fact is that genuine passports were obtained and copies made.
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