National ID Card?

[lets-retire]

I am not challenging wanting to live outside of society. That’s fine. It has nothing to do with an ID card, though.

Actually when I used the example it did have bearing on the discussion. My point was in the past the government has only required the population to do certain things like, pay taxes or get a DL if they met certain qualifications like, receive pay or drive a vehicle. It seems our government has decided that they can take action against us if we fail to do things simply because we are changing O2 into CO2. The health insurance issue is one rather poor example example, but it is a step in that direction. This talk about requiring a national ID is actually a very good example. If we are alive we have to have a national ID or what? How is that going to be enforced? A fine, jail time, if there isn't a punishment there will be little compliance. That was my initial point, before the example was attacked as not being possible.

 

[Independent]

Yes, but you also need a picture ID with your birth certificate such as a driver's license.

How does the employer know that the birth certificate and the photo ID are both valid and both for the same person?

I've assumed that the millions of illegal workers are using some combination of forgeries and illegal obtained valid birth certificates to prove identity, and that employers aren't document specialists and hence can't tell that they are hiring illegals.

I got my valid BC by mail, without presenting myself in person, without proving that I was really the person on the BC. It seems that it would be a reasonably simple matter to get a valid BC, use it to get a valid DL, then use them to prove you are eligible for work.

So the "employment eligibility ID" made sense to me since I figured the federal gov't is better at verifying documents than the typical employer. Am I missing something?

 

[Alan]

How does the employer know that the birth certificate and the photo ID are both valid and both for the same person?

I've assumed that the millions of illegal workers are using some combination of forgeries and illegal obtained valid birth certificates to prove identity, and that employers aren't document specialists and hence can't tell that they are hiring illegals.

I got my valid BC by mail, without presenting myself in person, without proving that I was really the person on the BC. It seems that it would be a reasonably simple matter to get a valid BC, use it to get a valid DL, then use them to prove you are eligible for work.

So the "employment eligibility ID" made sense to me since I figured the federal gov't is better at verifying documents than the typical employer. Am I missing something?

It is all to do with verification. Employers could easily verify if the SS number is valid but obviously many don't, and when tax returns are submitted the Federal Government does not validate them either which is why millions of $ are collected for SS every year that are not assigned to anyone. As long as illegals work and pay taxes the government doesn't care.

I would have no problem with a National ID if I thought it would be secure and wouldn't cost $Billions to implement and would be enforced.

http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/cir/cir021.htm

Contrary to common perceptions, the majority of undocumented noncitizen workers actually work “on the books” for employers who require that their employees have a Social Security number (SSN). Undocumented people generally cannot obtain a valid “authorized for employment” SSN. Therefore, many must use an invalid SSN if they are to work in the U.S. As a result, they and their employers pay billions of dollars in payroll taxes each year, boosting the Social Security and Medicare trust funds from which everyone benefits.[1] Like any other workers, undocumented workers are both required and encouraged by the federal government to pay payroll and income taxes.[2] According to the U.S. Internal Revenue Service, undocumented noncitizens paid almost $50 billion in federal taxes from 1996 to 2003.[3] Recent reports from across the country indicate that during the 2007 tax season, record numbers of undocumented people filed tax returns.[4]

 

[Independent]

It is all to do with verification. Employers could easily verify if the SS number is valid but obviously many don't, and when tax returns are submitted the Federal Government does not validate them either which is why millions of $ are collected for SS every year that are not assigned to anyone. As long as illegals work and pay taxes the government doesn't care.

I would have no problem with a National ID if I thought it would be secure and wouldn't cost $Billions to implement and would be enforced.

That's kind of my thought. I figured it would be more secure (harder to fake) than the current system of birth certificate and driver's license. I assume the cost would be "billions" since just $10 per worker would be $1.6 billion. I'm thinking the cost would be worth it.

OTOH, following your link, I got this "Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

If green cards are so easy to counterfeit that they are available for $150 on any street corner, then I wouldn't do anything with an ID for native-birth citizens. We need to figure out how to make green cards more secure first.

 

[Alan]

That's kind of my thought. I figured it would be more secure (harder to fake) than the current system of birth certificate and driver's license. I assume the cost would be "billions" since just $10 per worker would be $1.6 billion. I'm thinking the cost would be worth it.

OTOH, following your link, I got this "Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

If green cards are so easy to counterfeit that they are available for $150 on any street corner, then I wouldn't do anything with an ID for native-birth citizens. We need to figure out how to make green cards more secure first.

Exactly.

I posted earlier that within months of the change to the new "smart" British Passports with embedded microchip they had been decoded.

Recently, agents believed to be from Israel forged and traveled on Forged British Passports

Mr. Miliband said that the investigators “were drawn to the conclusion” that the fake passports used by the suspects in the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh had been made from copies of genuine passports after those documents had been “handed over for inspection to individuals linked to Israel.”

Whether or not it was Israeli agents, the fact is that genuine passports were obtained and copies made.

 

[M Paquette]

I posted earlier that within months of the change to the new "smart" British Passports with embedded microchip they had been decoded.

A number of years ago, California moved to a special hard plastic (credit-card style) drivers license, with grand claims about how it would stop the production of counterfeit IDs.

That lasted about two weeks, when someone swiped a roll of the holograph film used to cover the stock CR80 blanks after printing with an inkjet printer.

A 'national ID card' will be nothing but a new business opportunity for the usual suspects, and a fun new way to hassle people and maybe make a little cash on the side. "Show me your papers, old man!"