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National ID Card?
Old 05-02-2010, 05:56 PM   #1
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National ID Card?

Rumblings of a National ID card?

ACLU blasts national ID card proposal - UPI.com

I thought we already have one. Called a Social Security Card?

I bet if there is one even with biometrics, that still won't be foolproof. For example, what happens if the card gets lost? Would they ever issue a replacement? If they don't than not everyone gets ID'd. If they do, then there's been more than one ID card already created for the person.

As you can tell, the cynic in me says this won't work and it's actually kind of scary.
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Old 05-02-2010, 06:34 PM   #2
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Legal immigrants on a "green card" already are required to have one. It includes your fingerprint.

We each had one until we became citizens, then no need for an id card.

For me, I don't expect it to happen and don't see that it would be effective anyway. I once saw a program on TV where the presenter showed how to easily fool a thumbprint and eye scanner using materials readily available from the store. If your SS number is stolen you can be issued a new one. What happens when your biometric id is stolen?
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Old 05-02-2010, 08:17 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
Rumblings of a National ID card?

ACLU blasts national ID card proposal - UPI.com

I thought we already have one. Called a Social Security Card?

I bet if there is one even with biometrics, that still won't be foolproof. For example, what happens if the card gets lost? Would they ever issue a replacement? If they don't than not everyone gets ID'd. If they do, then there's been more than one ID card already created for the person.

As you can tell, the cynic in me says this won't work and it's actually kind of scary.
If you look at your social security card it specifically states "Not for identification". I would be opposed to any sort of national ID system.
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:51 PM   #4
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If you look at your social security card it specifically states "Not for identification". I would be opposed to any sort of national ID system.

Have you gotten a new job recently

You have to get an I-9 (IIRC... not exactly sure of the form number)... you have to provide two different forms of ID... one that is acceptable is your SS card...

Now, I wish I KNEW where my SS card is located... I have not seen it since I was about 8....
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:08 AM   #5
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What exactly is the problem with a national ID card? What evils would behoove us? Every other industrialized nation has one as far as I know and they seem to get along more or less OK
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:59 AM   #6
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What exactly is the problem with a national ID card?
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:32 AM   #7
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Have you gotten a new job recently

You have to get an I-9 (IIRC... not exactly sure of the form number)... you have to provide two different forms of ID... one that is acceptable is your SS card...

Now, I wish I KNEW where my SS card is located... I have not seen it since I was about 8....
You are right however, the Social Security law states that the card is not to be used for ID.
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Old 05-03-2010, 05:36 AM   #8
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What exactly is the problem with a national ID card? What evils would behoove us? Every other industrialized nation has one as far as I know and they seem to get along more or less OK
My problem with it is that I oppose anything that increases the power of the Federal government over the lives of individuals. Concentration of power is, in my opinion, always a bad thing. Each state has a viable ID system in the drivers license; that has worked well for a long time. The UK does not have a national ID as yet and it is being fought by a lot of people there.
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:15 AM   #9
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You are right however, the Social Security law states that the card is not to be used for ID.
Yeah, mine does too. Try getting a job, opening a bank account, seeing a doctor, filing your taxes (), and maybe even applying for Social Security without using it. From what I have read of the law it is not intended to be the original reason for contact.
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Old 05-03-2010, 07:15 AM   #10
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I tend to agree; I used a DL for identification before I ever owned a car. Having yet another laminated card in my collection, that (inevitably) has to be renewed periodically for an ever-rising fee, doesn't turn me on.

Do you think it may serve a purpose, if the driver's licenses could be modified to certify U.S. citizenship?

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My problem with it is that I oppose anything that increases the power of the Federal government over the lives of individuals. Concentration of power is, in my opinion, always a bad thing. Each state has a viable ID system in the drivers license; that has worked well for a long time. The UK does not have a national ID as yet and it is being fought by a lot of people there.
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Old 05-03-2010, 08:41 AM   #11
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My problem with it is that I oppose anything that increases the power of the Federal government over the lives of individuals. Concentration of power is, in my opinion, always a bad thing. Each state has a viable ID system in the drivers license; that has worked well for a long time.
I don't understand. It is alright to "increase the power" of a state's government but not to the Federal? Wouldn't a Nation ID be similar (if not the same) as a driver's license -- even replace it? I see that as a good thing.

In the meantime, I find that the most universally acceptable form of ID is my U.S. Passport. Flashing it has always trumped all others.

Yes, you have to give a SS # for many reasons. However, I have never seen it used for identification other than access to certain information -- similar to the use of a password.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:29 AM   #12
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My problem with it is that I oppose anything that increases the power of the Federal government over the lives of individuals. Concentration of power is, in my opinion, always a bad thing. Each state has a viable ID system in the drivers license; that has worked well for a long time. The UK does not have a national ID as yet and it is being fought by a lot of people there.
Thanks, I was not aware that the UK did not have a national ID. According to Wikepedia however, they seem to be in the process of implementing such.

I don't know what the requirements for DL are in your state but I don't recall submitting proof of citizenship ever when obtaining a Drivers license and I have had one for close to half a century (maybe my memory is going too). I guess 12 million illegal immigrants would argue against the State Drivers license working well as an ID

But quite frankly I still don't understand how the National Id would increase the power of the National Government over what they already have. I have to file my taxes. if I don't they'll come after me, take over my accounts and basically hang me upside down. With the Patriot act provisions they can poke and prove into everything I do with minimal judicial supervision. I expect an e-mail anytime reminding me that I forgot to floss my teeth yesterday
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:30 AM   #13
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I really don't have a problem in essence with a national id card except that it is very expensive to implement and I don't believe it will really increase security.

The UK government has wanted to implement one ever since 9/11 (or even before that), but even with a majority government in power for the last 13 years they haven't been able to get it done because of costs and privacy issues. It hasn't helped that every now and then some government agency makes a blunder and lose personal details of thousands of people. A quick search finds this sort of data loss continues year after year including this one in March:

Infosecurity (UK) - Confidential social services data found on USB stick in Stoke-on-Trent

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Confidential social services data found on USB stick in Stoke-on-Trent
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Records from the city council's social services department have been found on an unencrypted USB stick in Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent. The stick was handed in by an IT consultant to the local newspaper, the Sentinel, on Friday, after he apparently found it lying on the pavement.

The size of the USA and complexity make implementation really expensive and data loss inevitable. When I had to have a Resident Alien card I only carried it when I needed it - international travel, starting work with a new employer etc. In the past I have lost my drivers license and had to get a new one issued. If I lost my RA card then my fingerprint was lost with it and I'm not convinced that a new type of national id card will contain biometric data that cannot be duplicated.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:31 AM   #14
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I don't understand. It is alright to "increase the power" of a state's government but not to the Federal? Wouldn't a Nation ID be similar (if not the same) as a driver's license -- even replace it? I see that as a good thing.

In the meantime, I find that the most universally acceptable form of ID is my U.S. Passport. Flashing it has always trumped all others.

Yes, you have to give a SS # for many reasons. However, I have never seen it used for identification other than access to certain information -- similar to the use of a password.
I have no doubt that a national ID would be started with the best of intentions. However, politics tends to attract people that like power and I am afraid that "mission creep" would eventually give them far more power than I want them to have. It would make it entirely too easy to require the ID be shown for innumerable things for which it was never intended (just as the Social Security card is now). I am a firm believer that power corrupts and my freedom and independence are my most prized possessions. Passports are a form of national ID but they are not required unless one leaves the country. I have one but it's main use is to visit Canada; I hate flying and can't afford to go cruising on a regular basis so my passport mostly lays on my desk.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:50 AM   #15
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Thanks, I was not aware that the UK did not have a national ID. According to Wikepedia however, they seem to be in the process of implementing such.

I don't know what the requirements for DL are in your state but I don't recall submitting proof of citizenship ever when obtaining a Drivers license and I have had one for close to half a century (maybe my memory is going too). I guess 12 million illegal immigrants would argue against the State Drivers license working well as an ID

But quite frankly I still don't understand how the National Id would increase the power of the National Government over what they already have. I have to file my taxes. if I don't they'll come after me, take over my accounts and basically hang me upside down. With the Patriot act provisions they can poke and prove into everything I do with minimal judicial supervision. I expect an e-mail anytime reminding me that I forgot to floss my teeth yesterday
I had to supply a copy of my birth certificate to get a learner's permit for driving. At that time (49 years ago) one could get a driver's license at 14 in ND.
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:52 AM   #16
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I had to supply a copy of my birth certificate to get a learner's permit for driving. At that time (49 years ago) one could get a driver's license at 14 in ND.
Back in 1987 when we got our first DL's in Texas you had to produce a birth certificate which we did and got DL's. Since we were born in England I can confirm that in Texas DL's aren't proof of citizenship.

We got new Texas DL's not long ago (after 15 years in LA) and we knew that you could register to vote at the same time so we took along our US passports as well but were never asked for them or any proof of citizenship. All we had to do was check the box that asked "Are you a US Citizen?". (and we duly received our voter registration cards).
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:05 AM   #17
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I lived in a country with a national ID system and I don't see what the big deal is. My national ID card basically looked like the driver's license issued by my state (but more secured). Same information, same stupid photo, but with biometric features embedded in it like a passport.

And by the way, I had to prove my immigration status before I could be issued a driver's license in my state.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:25 AM   #18
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Would a national ID duplicate the passport? What would be different about it except that it apparently would be a card, like this maybe, which actually is the US Passport Card (U.S. Passport Card):
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:59 AM   #19
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I have no problem with a National ID card but if they ever try to microchip or tattoo me I might have a problem.
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:02 AM   #20
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I have no problem with a National ID card but if they ever try to microchip or tattoo me I might have a problem.
So... your fingerprints are not on file somewhere? Is your photograph not on your driver's license? You don't have a credit card? You don't have a cell phone?

Unless you have been able to avoid all of the above... "they" already know everything there is to know about you.
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