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04-13-2018, 08:14 AM
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#41
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtail
Lots of interesting opinions here which is great. Is it also possible that some of thoughts/concepts expressed in these opinions are shaped by personal circumstances?
For example, I believe Vermont and New York don't have age based health "premium penalties". Thus if someone lived in sections of Tenn or Ariz as an example where the ACA coverage is limited and can have very high (24k or so) premiums without a subsidy, would the thinking be different?
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Thinking would not be different for me as to me age rating is a separate issue.
I actually think that prohibiting age rating is a good idea theoretically... that is what we do for group health insurance that many employers provide and it works successfully in those states that have it IMO. However, it is a different mindset... as one needs to acknowledge that for those who have health insurance their entire adult life that age rating flattens the cost of having health insurance even though the cost of care is obviously skewed to later years.... IOW, you pay more than the cost while you are you and subsidize older participants and pay less than the cost while you are older and get partially subsidized.... it works well for group health insurance so why not for individual health insurance?
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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04-13-2018, 09:35 AM
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#42
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 1,382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
probably not... Ss is different in that it is effectively (ok, i know not legally but effectively) a life insurance, disability insurance and pension program bundled into one. We pay premiums (in the form of taxes) and our beneficiarie receive benefits if we die, or we receive benefits if we become disabled and we receive retirement benefits when we reach retirement age. And admittedly, the retirement benefits are lopsided in that higher earners get lower retirement benefits relative to their contributions than lower earners so there are some warts.... But support for the program would disappear if it were to evolve into just another entitlement program.
On the point that the gentleman was trying to make.... I totally agree that those with substantial assets should not receive snap, or aca subsidies, or other such benefits intended for the "needy"... But that is not the way those programs are designed.... I suspect in part because of the perceived difficulties in admnistering compliance.
However, imo that compliance issue could be solved very easily by having a question on the program application along the lines of is your net worth greater than $x? Those who answer yes get benefits... Those who answer no do not... And those who answer yes are subject to random audit and if you answer yes falsely then you go to jail for up to a year.
P.s. If i had done what the guy did... Instead of saying that i increased my charitable giving by the amount received i would have handed the state treasury a check equal to the benefits that i received plus interest since then the "payback" would be verifiable.
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thank you for saying this. I have been warned about commenting on this topic. Means testing for aca subsidies is long overdue.
__________________
Jump in, the water's warm.
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04-13-2018, 09:38 AM
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#43
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bir48die
thank you for saying this. I have been warned about commenting on this topic. Means testing for aca subsidies is long overdue.
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To be clear, I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but if they decided to means test ACA then I would not think it would make ACA subsidies unfair since the intent it to help people who can't afford health insurance and not to assist people of substantial means to retire early.
I concede that it is easy for me to say since I have chosen to forgo ACA subsidies for other reasons.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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04-13-2018, 10:01 AM
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#44
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
It is fair. People with income over a certain amount (pretty much the standard deduction) pay commensurate with their ability to pay... and progressive tax rates end up with people with more ability to pay, pay more. That seems fair to me.
And since generally speaking means are built with income and means typically generate income, I suspect that broadly speaking those with means pay more income tax than those without, especially in the long run.
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I agree with that. And for that reason, I do not think a net worth or asset test is appropriate for income taxes or for ACA subsidies (the loss of which has the same effect as a tax).
I would not expect such a test in any case, but it is an interesting discussion.
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04-13-2018, 03:22 PM
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#45
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 4,633
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I don't understand the brouhaha.
People are usually on SNAP/TANF/etc. temporarily.
The millionaire who 'exposed' the fact that there's not been an asset test for SNAP for several years now probably enjoyed all sorts of subsidies while he was accumulating his fortune.
Heck, if I could roll back the clock I'd do what many here have done and pursue hands-on real estate investing in order to use the depreciation on my properties to offset my other income.
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04-13-2018, 04:09 PM
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#46
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill
....
Heck, if I could roll back the clock I'd do what many here have done and pursue hands-on real estate investing in order to use the depreciation on my properties to offset my other income.
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All renters should appreciate depreciation and the writing off of landlord costs, without those things, as a landlord I'd have to double the rent charged, and so would all other landlords in the city.
So in effect renters benefit from depreciation , as well as deductibility of real estate taxes and repair expenses.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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04-13-2018, 04:42 PM
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#47
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Madison
Posts: 1,337
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VA benefits
As a 22 year Navy vet, I assumed that I could get something from the VA program (actually I tried to get in so that I could participate in a study of dementia) but they ask for your assets. It's a line item on their request for services application. Of course I didn't meet the need requirement.
But I actually applaud this. The money that the VA gets should be for those vets who need the care and can't afford it.
__________________
Wild Bill shoulda taken more out of his IRA when he could have. . . .
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04-14-2018, 09:55 AM
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#48
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,358
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That surprises me. I have a number of friends that are veterans that use the VA and they seem pretty affluent to me.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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04-14-2018, 11:22 AM
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#49
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Flyover country
Posts: 25,346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtbach
The money that the VA gets should be for those vets who need the care and can't afford it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
That surprises me. I have a number of friends that are veterans that use the VA and they seem pretty affluent to me.
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It's complicated.
I'm entitled to VA care, but I generally just go in for an annual courtesy call checkup and a flu shot.
One time when the clinic was fairly busy, I commented that I felt a bit guilty for taking up their time. I was quickly admonished that I was looking at it the wrong way. Each facility's budget is partly determined by how many veterans they have enrolled, so if I stopped coming in, they would have their budget cut. So they were happy to have me on their books since I didn't drain their resources and helped their overall capabilities.
__________________
I thought growing old would take longer.
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04-14-2018, 11:37 AM
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#50
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
That surprises me. I have a number of friends that are veterans that use the VA and they seem pretty affluent to me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braumeister
It's complicated.
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Yes, complicated indeed. For one thing, an injury/condition/disability that is related to a person's military service will generally qualify for treatment by the VA regardless of the individual's financial status (or whether they retired from military service). Lots of folks have hearing issues (though it has gotten better since all the services are now quite strict on use of hearing protection). I know very few servicemembers with extended infantry or airborne time who don't also have knee, hip, or back problems. Etc.
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04-15-2018, 04:10 AM
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#51
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Yes, complicated indeed. For one thing, an injury/condition/disability that is related to a person's military service will generally qualify for treatment by the VA regardless of the individual's financial status (or whether they retired from military service). Lots of folks have hearing issues (though it has gotten better since all the services are now quite strict on use of hearing protection). I know very few servicemembers with extended infantry or airborne time who don't also have knee, hip, or back problems. Etc.
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+! on the above my oldest son hurt his back jumping while in the 82nd AB bad enough no more jumping after that. He got transfered to a Striker Brigade at FT. Wainwright Alaaska went to Iraq twice. He received 2 Purple Hearts, medically retired as a Sgt first class E7 from the army with 80% disabilty after 14 years. I would stand up for anybody to receive VA benefits after that ordeal.
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04-15-2018, 05:19 AM
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#52
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upstate
Posts: 2,950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeea
Hmm, what happened recently that increased debt?
And now it's a worry?
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We have been on this road to ruin for a long, long time. Eventually, it becomes unsustainable. When, I don't know. People can live beyond their means for a long time, and so can the collective people aka government spending.
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04-16-2018, 06:04 AM
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#53
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Dryer sheet wannabe
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 22
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Means testing is inevitable. While all we hear about is L vs R, D vs R, rich vs poor, black vs white (that’s as close to political as I plan to get) what we don’t hear about is the government class vs the rest of us. They are going to protect their turf and lifestyle in retirement and means testing the rest of us for SS benefits is absolutely going to happen. We are running trillion dollar deficits.
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04-16-2018, 06:22 AM
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#54
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: On a hill in the Pine Barrens
Posts: 9,719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ownyourfuture
https://www.twincities.com/2018/04/1...-make-a-point/
On the one hand, I applaud this man for having the guts to go through with this to prove his point. On the other hand, I fear that if they ever seriously addressed this & counted assets, they could also apply it to subsidized healthcare at some point.
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An interesting story which reminds me of voluntary compliance with the US tax code. I had the pleasure of working with a tax firm, and entered data for approximately 100 tax returns (but whose counting?). I saw things that were quite amazing.
One can take advantage of our generous social programs, and often without penalty. Guess this gives additional meaning to the phrase, "It's a free country." Also, there is safety in numbers, until you take a step that causes your return to be looked at a bit closer.
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04-16-2018, 06:40 AM
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#55
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Madison
Posts: 1,337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski
That surprises me. I have a number of friends that are veterans that use the VA and they seem pretty affluent to me.
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Yeah, I keep hearing stories about guys getting hearing aides (and I could use some after 3000 hours of jet and turbo-prop flying) for free and other services.
So I applied and got the letter back saying, thank you for your service but you are NOT eligible for VA services and specifically said it was because I didn't meet the financial need requirement.
__________________
Wild Bill shoulda taken more out of his IRA when he could have. . . .
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04-16-2018, 06:47 AM
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#56
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Madison
Posts: 1,337
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I did forget to mention that I was cleared 100% medically when I retired from the service. Those who have military related injuries (i.e. disabilities) are waived from financial requirement.
So for those vets who did their service, got out in fine health, are not automatically qualified to VA care and that is where the financial mean testing comes into play.
I did not intend to imply that guys with Purple Hearts and substantial injuries were also means tested.
__________________
Wild Bill shoulda taken more out of his IRA when he could have. . . .
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04-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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#57
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,961
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I think one misconception is that the ACA is for helping the "needy".
One needs to have an income, and not just an income but 133% of the poverty level to get an ACA subsidy, no income or income below 1.33x the poverty level and you are routed to Medicaid, which IS meant for the needy.
AND ACA will subsidize up through incomes 4x the poverty level... thats an income of $64,080. thats 1.1x more than the starting salary for most high paid engineering degrees. A family of 4 can earn up to almost $100,000 before subsidies are cut off!!! So ACA was never about "need".
Off the hip it seems to make sense to means test for ACA. But dig a little. The cheapest high deductible health plan would cost me over 18,000 in annual premiums and another 13,000 in out of pocket deductibles before insurance would pay a dime in coverage. Thats 3.25x what my mortgage was and roughly equal to the rest of my entire budget (food, insurance, taxes, utilities, etc).
The system is broken, no doubt. And there is no such thing as a perfect system. Means testing for ACA or SS will just have the effect of soaking the ants and rewarding grasshoppers in one of Aesop's Fables https://www.umass.edu/aesop/content.php?n=0&i=1
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04-16-2018, 11:12 AM
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#58
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: The Great Wide Open
Posts: 3,804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COcheesehead
You don't think there will be means testing for SS at some point?
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While I do expect means testing for SS to pop it's ugly head again in the future again; it is already means tested tax wise. Up to 85% of your benefits, can be taxed, and it was taxed at different rates while you paid your "premiums" into it.
From what I understand, in order for SS to be constitutional, it had to be an "insurance" program. Otherwise, taking assets from one class of citizens to give to another class of people on an uneven level, would violate the equal protection clause.
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04-16-2018, 12:13 PM
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#59
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Conroe, Texas
Posts: 18,727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock
I think one misconception is that the ACA is for helping the "needy".
One needs to have an income, and not just an income but 133% of the poverty level to get an ACA subsidy, no income or income below 1.33x the poverty level and you are routed to Medicaid, which IS meant for the needy.
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Unless you are in a state that has not agreed to expand Medicaid. Then you have no insurance coverage and have to visit medical facilities and pay the freight, or not, and possibly ruin your credit rating. Nice system!
__________________
*********Go Yankees!*********
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04-16-2018, 07:55 PM
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#60
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 7,584
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Well, if state has not expanded Medicare there is a gap, but Medicare is still the ultimate safety net.
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