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Old 02-25-2011, 10:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BTravlin View Post
Hopefully, I'm not talking to myself here but I type therefore I exist.

Anyway, this person is known to an individual I've conversed with elsewhere for almost five years. They are professionals and have worked together previously.

Besides, there's nothing sinister about their message. They're tired of being repressed, they're making a grab for the gold ring and, at the very least, they'd like for us to speak up for them through whatever means possible.
Thanks. I think I cross-posted an edit while you were typing. Knowing someone who can vouch for the author's identity certainly bumps up the credibility a lot.
Regarding the innocent nature of the information: True. But countries and non-national entities spend huge resources on "influence operations" to help their cause. This can involve flashy advertising campaigns, large foreign aid donations, etc. But it's a lot cheaper to put 30 college kids (or smart conscripts) in a cubicle and have them chirping away about the theme of the day than to approach things the conventional way. No need to actually buy the rice and deliver it to show the world your country is good--it's a lot cheaper and more effective to have the local "villagers" (working in your cubicles) telling the world about the wonderful aid they received. That's innocent, too. One real person could keep scores of online identities "spinning," building associates and credibility for years until needed.

Anyway, good to hear that you have reason to believe this is legit (whoever you are )
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:52 PM   #62
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Are you supporting the idea that the USA should be the world's policeman?

Libya is in the headlines right now. Is that the criteria selection for where the USA fights? What about the other conflicts?

BBC NEWS

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We have been the world police since WWII. Being a cop doesn't mean you can stop all crime, all of the time you have to pick and chose what to focus on.

The Libyan Ambassador to the US, along with many other Libyan ambassador has requested we enforce a no-fly zone to keep Qaddafi from using his airforce to kill the people. We enforced a no fly zone in Iraq for 12 years and lost no airplanes. We fought an air war in the Balkans and no American were killed. However, we saved tens of thousands of lives as the result of our actions.

The US's AIDs relief program has treated more than 3 million HIV positive patients and prevent more than 12 million infections. As for malaria I have every confidence that the Gate's foundation will eventually make huge impact on this disease. But even the US can't cure world hunger or stop all disease, or keep all nasty dictators from abusing their people, but simply because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.

I am not suggesting sending in the Marine's simply responding to request by the Libyan government to provide assistance like we would do in natural disaster, where the US military has often provided critical help.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:44 AM   #63
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This is all very scary to watch. Would not be surprised if Q blows up his own country. Amazing that he and his son make the point that Libyans "live and die" in Libya as they threaten to make their country a "flame torch".
A raving lunatic.! Other nations may be forced to take drastic measures to protect the citizens. This seems to be a "fight at any and all costs".
Going forward..not certain how this will change the world. Neither are our leaders.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:14 AM   #64
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Just heard via Facebook, from a friend who was on the US ferry and made it to Malta safely. Does not sound like a place to visit any time soon.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:17 AM   #65
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There's a very interesting aspect to this wave of protest in the middle east:

Perhaps if there had been no Iraq war, Saddam Hussein might have been removed by a protest such as the one's we're seeing.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:20 AM   #66
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There's a very interesting aspect to this wave of protest in the middle east:

Perhaps if there had been no Iraq war, Saddam Hussein might have been removed by a protest such as the one's we're seeing.
And if the South had won the Civil War, you'd be eating grits instead of tofu...
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by dex View Post
Are you supporting the idea that the USA should be the world's policeman?
There's precedent-

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli
We will fight our country's battles, in the air, on land, and sea...

Anyway Dexie, we have spent quite a few years "creating democracy" in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they do not seem all that crazy to get it. Why not lend a boost to people who appear to be dying for it?

Ha
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:10 AM   #68
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We have been the world police since WWII. Being a cop doesn't mean you can stop all crime, all of the time you have to pick and chose what to focus on.
That is far from being correct - take a look at the list of military conflicts.

List of ongoing military conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post

The Libyan Ambassador to the US, along with many other Libyan ambassador has requested we enforce a no-fly zone to keep Qaddafi from using his airforce to kill the people. We enforced a no fly zone in Iraq for 12 years and lost no airplanes. We fought an air war in the Balkans and no American were killed. However, we saved tens of thousands of lives as the result of our actions.
The above were as a result of UN resolutions and other members participated.

The US did not send in the military in Dafur when people asked for help. There are other examples you can research.


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The US's AIDs relief program has treated more than 3 million HIV positive patients and prevent more than 12 million infections. As for malaria I have every confidence that the Gate's foundation will eventually make huge impact on this disease. But even the US can't cure world hunger or stop all disease, or keep all nasty dictators from abusing their people, but simply because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.
But you are not embarrassed by US government's timid response?

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Originally Posted by clifp View Post
I am not suggesting sending in the Marine's simply responding to request by the Libyan government to provide assistance like we would do in natural disaster, where the US military has often provided critical help.
Natural disasters do not shoot back at you.

Obama bashing looses its edge when it is brought out on every issue.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:46 AM   #69
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There's precedent-

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli
We will fight our country's battles, in the air, on land, and sea...
Does the USA have seamen imprisoned in Libya and have we been paying tribute to Libya? If so, you are correct we should send the youth of our nation into battle to fight, die and get injured.

First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Anyway Dexie, we have spent quite a few years "creating democracy" in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they do not seem all that crazy to get it.
The USA did not say 'lets start a war in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring democracy. Many other reasons were given.

There are many more precedents for not doing it. See my post above for more.


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Originally Posted by haha View Post
Why not lend a boost to people who appear to be dying for it?

Ha
Libya has a tribal system and that is most likely to continue. Read up on it as to why that is what will emerge rather than democracy.

Kadafi came out of the tribal system and his replacement will most likely be a 'Kadafi' like leader.


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Old 02-26-2011, 02:12 PM   #70
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With all the stuff going on in the Middle East....uh...when is the date the world is supposed to end? Might have to put that on my calendar just in case.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:41 PM   #71
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That is far from being correct - take a look at the list of military conflicts.

List of ongoing military conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As I said we need to be wise about when and where we put our Team America Wold Police badges on. But I am confused do you believe there is another force, like the UN that acts as world police. Or is you point that there is a lot of crime going on?

Quote:
The above were as a result of UN resolutions and other members participated.
This seems to be a common mis perception. Neither the Iraq no fly zones nor the war in Kosovo were authorized by the UN. In fact the UN Sec.General opposed the no fly zones. Given my choice between making the UN happy, and saving the lives of thousands of Kurds, who flourished under the protection of the non fly zone between 92-2003, I am going to go with the Kurds. Right now both Britain and France are calling for No Fly zone.

The situation in Kosovo was particularly tragic, we spent weeks vainly attempting to get Russia to not veto a UN resolution, while Milosevic and his thugs were killing thousand and raping tens of thousands. Ultimately, the war was fought as NATO operation. However, it was in reality it was a US operation with more than 95% of combat mission being flown by US aircraft. Acting sooner would have saved thousands.

Quote:
The US did not send in the military in Dafur when people asked for help.
Neither did the UN but they sure issued a lot of resolutions, talking about how bad the situation. If talking about doing good deeds saved lives the people of Darfur would be truly blessed. It didn't turn out to well for the people of Darfur did it?

Quote:
But you are not embarrassed by US government's timid response?
Actually I am rather proud of the work the US government has done in slowing the spread of HIV in Africa, and providing humanitarian aid around the world, although much of it has been done by private charities.

If you are talking about Darfur, yes I am embarrassed. We can't save everybody, but I'm pretty sure that we could have made a big difference.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:36 PM   #72
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With all the stuff going on in the Middle East....uh...when is the date the world is supposed to end? Might have to put that on my calendar just in case.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:03 PM   #73
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As I said we need to be wise about when and where we put our Team America Wold Police badges on. But I am confused do you believe there is another force, like the UN that acts as world police. Or is you point that there is a lot of crime going on?
See post 68 for the context of my comments. Read your post and my comments. It answers your question.

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This seems to be a common mis perception. Neither the Iraq no fly zones nor the war in Kosovo were authorized by the UN. In fact the UN Sec.General opposed the no fly zones. Given my choice between making the UN happy, and saving the lives of thousands of Kurds, who flourished under the protection of the non fly zone between 92-2003, I am going to go with the Kurds. Right now both Britain and France are calling for No Fly zone.

The situation in Kosovo was particularly tragic, we spent weeks vainly attempting to get Russia to not veto a UN resolution, while Milosevic and his thugs were killing thousand and raping tens of thousands. Ultimately, the war was fought as NATO operation. However, it was in reality it was a US operation with more than 95% of combat mission being flown by US aircraft. Acting sooner would have saved thousands.
Good to know but what you say is does not contradict what I wrote.

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Neither did the UN but they sure issued a lot of resolutions, talking about how bad the situation. If talking about doing good deeds saved lives the people of Darfur would be truly blessed. It didn't turn out to well for the people of Darfur did it?
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Actually I am rather proud of the work the US government has done in slowing the spread of HIV in Africa, and providing humanitarian aid around the world, although much of it has been done by private charities.
I didn't mention AIDS ( I just quoted your whole post for simplicity).

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If you are talking about Darfur, yes I am embarrassed. We can't save everybody, but I'm pretty sure that we could have made a big difference.
No, again, read the post, it gives the proper context.


How many USA military deaths and injuries will take to ameliorate your embarrassment over Libya? Were those killed in Beirut under Reagan or those killed in Somalia under Clinton enough for those situations?
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:10 PM   #74
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I hope this is another Chavez delusion.

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CARACAS (Reuters) The Libyan government has accepted a Venezuelan plan that seeks a negotiated solution to the uprising in the North African country, a spokesman for President Hugo Chavez said on Thursday. Arab League says Chavez plan for Libya only under review - Yahoo! News
Chavez negotiates with his opposition in much the same way Libya does - using the Armed Forces to repress opposition, arming his supporter thugs and encouraging violence against any and all opposition No wonder Libya accepted so quickly.

Thugocracy in action.
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:24 PM   #75
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I hope this is another Chavez delusion.

Chavez negotiates with his opposition in much the same way Libya does - using the Armed Forces to repress opposition, arming his supporter thugs and encouraging violence against any and all opposition No wonder Libya accepted so quickly.

Thugocracy in action.
Niall Ferguson has an excellent article in this weeks Newsweek about usually favorable American attitudes toward populist revolutions. He points out that the American Revolution is about the only one known to history that did not lead to chaos, to be replaced not by Democracy but by the the meanest cruelest most despotic autocracy that the meanest cruelest best organized groups can enforce. French Revolution -> Jacobin horror, Russian Revolution -> Bolsheviks, Chinese Revoltion of 1949 to Mao's horror show, overthrow of the Shah led to the Iranian theocracy, etc.

He also points out (he is a bona fide historian) that early results are essentially meaningless, as for example the Googleites in Egypt will go back to doing cool things, but the Muslim Brotherhood and other anti-democratic groups will carry on assembling the levers of power and suppression.

I would like to go on record as thinking that the last political figure the US had who knew his A. from a hole in the ground was Henry Kissinger. Perhaps because he was not exactly American?

Ha
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #76
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He points out that the American Revolution is about the only one known to history that did not lead to chaos, to be replaced not by Democracy but by the the meanest cruelest most despotic autocracy that the meanest cruelest best organized groups can enforce.
Hungarian revolution 1989 -> Democracy
East German revolution 1990 -> Democracy
Czechoslovak revolution 1990 -> Democracy
etc etc
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:38 PM   #77
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Hungarian revolution 1989 -> Democracy
East German revolution 1990 -> Democracy
Czechoslovak revolution 1990 -> Democracy
etc etc
All formerly developed, free market economies, and also militarily protected by US/NATO. In the case of the former DDR, the former West Germany took it on as a charity case, and in fact continues to do so. And of course, these Democratic transitions were carefully nurtured by (mostly) the US, and part of the fall of the Big Piroshki.

But your examples may be relevant, we will have a chance to find out as time goes on.

Ha
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:46 PM   #78
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Hungarian revolution 1989 -> Democracy
East German revolution 1990 -> Democracy
Czechoslovak revolution 1990 -> Democracy
etc etc
Good point - the velvet revolution came to my mind also. Maybe a difference to consider is adding the adjective 'violent' to revolution. However, it is tough to oppose a revolution against an oppressive regime even if history tells us the odds are against a good outcome (arguably). I like to hope that once a repressed people get a taste of freedom and influence of their government (even brief) it will be difficult to contain them.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:28 PM   #79
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Niall Ferguson has an excellent article in this weeks Newsweek about usually favorable American attitudes toward populist revolutions. He points out that the American Revolution is about the only one known to history that did not lead to chaos, to be replaced not by Democracy but by the the meanest cruelest most despotic autocracy that the meanest cruelest best organized groups can enforce. French Revolution -> Jacobin horror, Russian Revolution -> Bolsheviks, Chinese Revoltion of 1949 to Mao's horror show, overthrow of the Shah led to the Iranian theocracy, etc.

He also points out (he is a bona fide historian) that early results are essentially meaningless, as for example the Googleites in Egypt will go back to doing cool things, but the Muslim Brotherhood and other anti-democratic groups will carry on assembling the levers of power and suppression.

I would like to go on record as thinking that the last political figure the US had who knew his A. from a hole in the ground was Henry Kissinger. Perhaps because he was not exactly American?

Ha
Ha-ney, it sounds as if you are agreeing with me!

Americans ignore history and sociology in favor populist revolutions because they believe:

"We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out." 1987 Full Metal Jacket
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:48 PM   #80
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In 1956 during the Hungarian revolution, the Voice of America, Radio Free Europa, and some other western block broadcasts were full of promises of help on the way.

It was all empty drivel and meaningless rhetoric, no help was on the way and Russians crushed the revolution with ease. To them it was just another minor inconvenience. Many escaped through the border before the Iron Curtain was erected.

A word to the wise in North Africa.
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