Recent events in Libya, Egypt and elsewhere

[samclem]

For a very interesting linkage of property rights and modern prosperity, including a history of property rights from ancient times, check out William Bernstein's (author of 'Four Pillars' and other ER.org favorites) 'The Birth of Plenty':

The Birth of Plenty: How the ... - Google Books

+1. A very interesting read.

 

[BTravlin]

I lived in Venezuela when Chavez rose up, left but remained very close (family, closest friends, primary home) as he began brutalizing the country and the people. We (my son, friends and I) participated in many protests. The conflict, pain and tragedy that results is unimaginable and widespread. It is no different in the middle east now.

The people rising up are repressed, and hungry. There is no guarantee what they are doing (Egypt & Tunisia) will lead to a better outcome for them, and based on the past two or three decades, once the developed and democratic world has finished moralizing and applauding, it will stand aside and let the pieces fall as they may. The institutions needed to prevent others from coming in to exploit this are not in place.

There are no guarantees what will come from all the unrest in the ME but decades of brutal repression have brought us to this point. I don't believe that most people there hate us, they are like most people in that they want a chance to have a family, feed them and educate them. They want an opportunity to better themselves. The largest percentage of people in the ME are under 30 and they are better educated than their parents and they can see what opportunities the world has to offer. They just want their fair shot at those opportunities. The U.S. and the Western world has to stand up and support them now or we'll be seen as total hypocrites and serve as the best recruiting tool the extremists have.

With that being said, I also see few institutions, especially political and legal, in place to help bring about the outcomes that most sane people would desire. Some of the possible negative outcomes are downright scary to consider. I do think that hundreds of years from now the digital history file for this period of time will warrant more than a few paragraphs.

 

[BTravlin]

Another message from inside Libya:

Dear Friends,

We are doing OK so far. I have been busy today driving around Tripoli checking things out. It appears quiet around Tripoli in the most part. People are scared and they are all inside their homes. Few food stores were open. Everything else is closed. Rations for bread per family are half of what they were yesterday. Almost all gas stations in Tripoli are closed. I was able to get gas for my car outside Tripoli. There were no lines for food but bakeries had lines but it wasn’t not too bad.

In my tour around the city, there were check points all over the city at every major intersection or traffic light!! People at the check points had AK47’s. These armed men were stopping drivers and doing car searches for some of them especially if the driver was a younger person. I was waved to go in all check points. It seems that I looked too old for them to be a protester J (I let my hair and beard grow over the last several days and the signs of wisdom and maturity, grey hair, is very visible).

The people with guns were in civilian clothing in the most part. The infamous Toyota Landcrusiers are visible all over the city. I also saw other types of cars without any license plates and they all had men with guns. In major intersections there were trucks with heavily armed men parked in an inconspicuous places to provide support to the armed men directing traffic. The area around the main “Revolutionary Committee” station (the Revolutionary committees are the main supporters of the regime.) had extensive display of armament (It is about a mile up the street from Q’s main barracks). Mini-bus Taxies that were transporting what appeared to be migrant workers to the Tunisian borders were being stopped and searched heavily. The security personnel were making the passengers take all of their luggage out of the car and lay them on the street to be searched.

It was very obvious that the regime did massive cleanup to remove any signs of the protest that took place over the last few nights. All graffiti on walls with slogans against the regime was painted over. There were city cleaning crews (black Africans) in their orange uniforms cleaning up all over the city. Security buildings were all burned up except the Internal Security HQ building which is heavily guarded and fortified.

I was told by an East European friend I know very well that people from his country who worked in hospitals in Tripoli told him that the regime’s guards came to hospitals and shot up all patients in the emergency rooms including patients who were there due to various ailments and not necessarily protestors. All patients were killed and bodies were taken away from the hospital!!! I have seen it myself that ALL hospitals now especially the trauma centers are heavily guarded by armed security personnel. This means that any protestor who is injured won’t be able to get medical treatment at all!

The weather in Tripoli is very windy and cold. There is an eerie feeling around the city. You can feel the tension and the anticipation that something big is going to happen. Everyone is waiting for it.

We hear reports that substantial confrontations between protestors and Q’s Security Battalion in Azzawiya City (about 60Km west of Tripoli) took place. It appears that heavy artillery, tanks, helicopters and even jet fighters were used. There is talk that the pilots that are flying the aircrafts attacking the protestors are from East European countries, primarily Ukraine and Serbs. It seems that the regime no longer trusts Libyan pilots anymore since Libyan pilots who were ordered to attack their fellow countrymen either defected to Malta or crashed their planes in the desert east of Libya.

Q’s in his latest TV talk (he called the Libyan TV station and addressed the rebels in Azzawiya earlier this evening with his voice but no picture), he appealed to Azzawiya “elders and wise men” to control their youth and to “seek treatment for their drug and alcohol” dependencies. He blamed all of these events on Osama Bin Laden. Q compared himself to rulers around the world who had honorary positions but no political responsibility. He specifically mentioned the Queen of England and he compared himself to her. Qaddafi basically wants to be a Queen!!!!

We wait and see what tomorrow will bring. We pray for a quick ending to this nightmare with minimum bloodshed. No one is naive, however, to believe that Q is going to go easily. Unarmed protestors in Tripoli are not going to be able to do it alone. Rebels in all neighboring cities and towns encircling Tripoli will need to eventually march to Tripoli to overcome Q and this Thugs once they have consolidated their control and power in their own locales. The Libyan military will need to be involved in the march. The regime supporters especially the lower rank types will give up easily when they see that they are outnumbered. I highly believe that these regime supporters don’t understand the magnitude of rebellion around the country. They are now “intoxicated” with the perceived might they have in their hands and don’t know or understand the volcano that is going to erupt from under their feet.

Power to the People!!!

 

[Purron]

Another message from inside Libya:

Q compared himself to rulers around the world who had honorary positions but no political responsibility. He specifically mentioned the Queen of England and he compared himself to her. Qaddafi basically wants to be a Queen!!!!

I thought this was beyond bizarre. Hoping this Queen song describes Q's situation soon....

YouTube - Queen - 'Another One Bites the Dust'

 

[clifp]

BTraveling thanks for posting this, I am humbled by this man's courage driving around Tripoli and than reporting it to the outside world, which must be both difficult and dangerous.

Now that many American are safely out of the country by ferry and plane, I am embarrassed by US government's timid response. We should be helping this people way be on just talking about talking and threatening sanctions.

 

[dex]

I am embarrassed by US government's timid response. We should be helping this people way be on just talking about talking and threatening sanctions.

Are you supporting the idea that the USA should be the world's policeman?

Libya is in the headlines right now. Is that the criteria selection for where the USA fights? What about the other conflicts?

BBC NEWS

There is oppression from dictators. What about the oppression of poverty?
What about starvation?
Starvation.net - The Three Top Sins Of The Universe by Mark R. Elsis

What about the oppression of malaria?

WHO | 10 facts on malaria

Are you equally embarrassed by US government's timid response to the other oppressions?

+++++

Old men have been sending young men into battle and to die since the beginning of time.

Maybe the solution is for young people to direct old people into battle and to die.

 

[Free To Canoe]

It strikes me that if there were a million people protesting in Washington DC, occupying public buildings and calling for the ouster of the government, we would see far more dead people than we have seen so far in Egypt and Libya.

It happened during the Great Depression. 4 people killed. A couple of later to be famous players involved.

Bonus Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not mean to equate what is going on in Africa with the smaller deals in the US. We haven't seen anything like Lybia since the Civil War.

Free to Canoe

 

[BTravlin]

BTraveling thanks for posting this, I am humbled by this man's courage driving around Tripoli and than reporting it to the outside world, which must be both difficult and dangerous.

Now that many American are safely out of the country by ferry and plane, I am embarrassed by US government's timid response. We should be helping this people way be on just talking about talking and threatening sanctions.

He asked that his message be widely spread so people would know what is going on. Happy to oblige.

 

[samclem]

He asked that his message be widely spread so people would know what is going on. Happy to oblige.

Who do you suppose he is? Any reason to believe he lives in Libya?

The net is a great "place," but countries and interest groups have learned that a small investment in manpower and a few computer lines can create a reality online that doesn't exist in the real world. We used to count on the press to be our information clearinghouses: AP, CBS, et al would confirm information before reporting it, because a loss of credibility would hurt their bottom line. They didn't always get it right, but at least there was somebody to hold accountable. Now, faceless Twitter feeds and blog postings form a new reality, and they just fade away when no longer needed. And, a lot of people just make up new identities and post stuff on the net for fun--it's easy, it's not illegal, and it gives them a kick to know they've got a bunch of folks on the string. There's just no way to know what's real unless you are there in person or someone you trust is there.

Heck, maybe I don't exist.

 

[BTravlin]

Who do you suppose he is? Any reason to believe he lives in Libya?

The net is a great "place," but countries and interest groups have learned that a small investment in manpower and a few computer lines can create a reality online that doesn't exist in the real world. We used to count on the press to be our information clearinghouses: AP, CBS, et al would confirm information before reporting it, because a loss of credibility would hurt their bottom line. They didn't always get it right, but at least there was somebody to hold accountable. Now, faceless Twitter feeds and blog postings form a new reality, and they just fade away when no longer needed.

Heck, maybe I don't exist.

Hopefully, I'm not talking to myself here but I type therefore I exist.

Anyway, this person is known to an individual I've conversed with elsewhere for almost five years. They are professionals and have worked together previously.

Besides, there's nothing sinister about their message. They're tired of being repressed, they're making a grab for the gold ring and, at the very least, they'd like for us to speak up for them through whatever means possible.

 

[samclem]

Hopefully, I'm not talking to myself here but I type therefore I exist.

Anyway, this person is known to an individual I've conversed with elsewhere for almost five years. They are professionals and have worked together previously.

Besides, there's nothing sinister about their message. They're tired of being repressed, they're making a grab for the gold ring and, at the very least, they'd like for us to speak up for them through whatever means possible.

Thanks. I think I cross-posted an edit while you were typing. Knowing someone who can vouch for the author's identity certainly bumps up the credibility a lot.
Regarding the innocent nature of the information: True. But countries and non-national entities spend huge resources on "influence operations" to help their cause. This can involve flashy advertising campaigns, large foreign aid donations, etc. But it's a lot cheaper to put 30 college kids (or smart conscripts) in a cubicle and have them chirping away about the theme of the day than to approach things the conventional way. No need to actually buy the rice and deliver it to show the world your country is good--it's a lot cheaper and more effective to have the local "villagers" (working in your cubicles) telling the world about the wonderful aid they received. That's innocent, too. One real person could keep scores of online identities "spinning," building associates and credibility for years until needed.

Anyway, good to hear that you have reason to believe this is legit (whoever you are )

 

[clifp]

Are you supporting the idea that the USA should be the world's policeman?

Libya is in the headlines right now. Is that the criteria selection for where the USA fights? What about the other conflicts?

BBC NEWS

.

We have been the world police since WWII. Being a cop doesn't mean you can stop all crime, all of the time you have to pick and chose what to focus on.

The Libyan Ambassador to the US, along with many other Libyan ambassador has requested we enforce a no-fly zone to keep Qaddafi from using his airforce to kill the people. We enforced a no fly zone in Iraq for 12 years and lost no airplanes. We fought an air war in the Balkans and no American were killed. However, we saved tens of thousands of lives as the result of our actions.

The US's AIDs relief program has treated more than 3 million HIV positive patients and prevent more than 12 million infections. As for malaria I have every confidence that the Gate's foundation will eventually make huge impact on this disease. But even the US can't cure world hunger or stop all disease, or keep all nasty dictators from abusing their people, but simply because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.

I am not suggesting sending in the Marine's simply responding to request by the Libyan government to provide assistance like we would do in natural disaster, where the US military has often provided critical help.

 

[sheehs1]

This is all very scary to watch. Would not be surprised if Q blows up his own country. Amazing that he and his son make the point that Libyans "live and die" in Libya as they threaten to make their country a "flame torch".
A raving lunatic.! Other nations may be forced to take drastic measures to protect the citizens. This seems to be a "fight at any and all costs".
Going forward..not certain how this will change the world. Neither are our leaders.
Investments? Not changing much, have been in some oil and gold for months.

 

[bssc]

Just heard via Facebook, from a friend who was on the US ferry and made it to Malta safely. Does not sound like a place to visit any time soon.

 

[TromboneAl]

There's a very interesting aspect to this wave of protest in the middle east:

Perhaps if there had been no Iraq war, Saddam Hussein might have been removed by a protest such as the one's we're seeing.

 

[REWahoo]

There's a very interesting aspect to this wave of protest in the middle east:

Perhaps if there had been no Iraq war, Saddam Hussein might have been removed by a protest such as the one's we're seeing.

And if the South had won the Civil War, you'd be eating grits instead of tofu...

 

[haha]

Are you supporting the idea that the USA should be the world's policeman?

There's precedent-

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli
We will fight our country's battles, in the air, on land, and sea...

Anyway Dexie, we have spent quite a few years "creating democracy" in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they do not seem all that crazy to get it. Why not lend a boost to people who appear to be dying for it?

Ha

 

[dex]

We have been the world police since WWII. Being a cop doesn't mean you can stop all crime, all of the time you have to pick and chose what to focus on.

That is far from being correct - take a look at the list of military conflicts.

List of ongoing military conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Libyan Ambassador to the US, along with many other Libyan ambassador has requested we enforce a no-fly zone to keep Qaddafi from using his airforce to kill the people. We enforced a no fly zone in Iraq for 12 years and lost no airplanes. We fought an air war in the Balkans and no American were killed. However, we saved tens of thousands of lives as the result of our actions.

The above were as a result of UN resolutions and other members participated.

The US did not send in the military in Dafur when people asked for help. There are other examples you can research.

The US's AIDs relief program has treated more than 3 million HIV positive patients and prevent more than 12 million infections. As for malaria I have every confidence that the Gate's foundation will eventually make huge impact on this disease. But even the US can't cure world hunger or stop all disease, or keep all nasty dictators from abusing their people, but simply because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything.

But you are not embarrassed by US government's timid response?

I am not suggesting sending in the Marine's simply responding to request by the Libyan government to provide assistance like we would do in natural disaster, where the US military has often provided critical help.

Natural disasters do not shoot back at you.

Obama bashing looses its edge when it is brought out on every issue.

 

[dex]

There's precedent-

"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli
We will fight our country's battles, in the air, on land, and sea...

Does the USA have seamen imprisoned in Libya and have we been paying tribute to Libya? If so, you are correct we should send the youth of our nation into battle to fight, die and get injured.

First Barbary War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway Dexie, we have spent quite a few years "creating democracy" in Iraq and Afghanistan, where they do not seem all that crazy to get it.

The USA did not say 'lets start a war in Iraq and Afghanistan to bring democracy. Many other reasons were given.

There are many more precedents for not doing it. See my post above for more.

Why not lend a boost to people who appear to be dying for it?

Ha

Libya has a tribal system and that is most likely to continue. Read up on it as to why that is what will emerge rather than democracy.

Kadafi came out of the tribal system and his replacement will most likely be a 'Kadafi' like leader.

 

[easysurfer]

With all the stuff going on in the Middle East....uh...when is the date the world is supposed to end? Might have to put that on my calendar just in case.

 

[clifp]

That is far from being correct - take a look at the list of military conflicts.

List of ongoing military conflicts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said we need to be wise about when and where we put our Team America Wold Police badges on. But I am confused do you believe there is another force, like the UN that acts as world police. Or is you point that there is a lot of crime going on?

The above were as a result of UN resolutions and other members participated.

This seems to be a common mis perception. Neither the Iraq no fly zones nor the war in Kosovo were authorized by the UN. In fact the UN Sec.General opposed the no fly zones. Given my choice between making the UN happy, and saving the lives of thousands of Kurds, who flourished under the protection of the non fly zone between 92-2003, I am going to go with the Kurds. Right now both Britain and France are calling for No Fly zone.

The situation in Kosovo was particularly tragic, we spent weeks vainly attempting to get Russia to not veto a UN resolution, while Milosevic and his thugs were killing thousand and raping tens of thousands. Ultimately, the war was fought as NATO operation. However, it was in reality it was a US operation with more than 95% of combat mission being flown by US aircraft. Acting sooner would have saved thousands.

The US did not send in the military in Dafur when people asked for help.

Neither did the UN but they sure issued a lot of resolutions, talking about how bad the situation. If talking about doing good deeds saved lives the people of Darfur would be truly blessed. It didn't turn out to well for the people of Darfur did it?

But you are not embarrassed by US government's timid response?

Actually I am rather proud of the work the US government has done in slowing the spread of HIV in Africa, and providing humanitarian aid around the world, although much of it has been done by private charities.

If you are talking about Darfur, yes I am embarrassed. We can't save everybody, but I'm pretty sure that we could have made a big difference.

 

[Purron]

With all the stuff going on in the Middle East....uh...when is the date the world is supposed to end? Might have to put that on my calendar just in case.

2012 baby. Party on like it's 2011

Prince, 1999 - AOL Video

 

[dex]

As I said we need to be wise about when and where we put our Team America Wold Police badges on. But I am confused do you believe there is another force, like the UN that acts as world police. Or is you point that there is a lot of crime going on?

See post 68 for the context of my comments. Read your post and my comments. It answers your question.

This seems to be a common mis perception. Neither the Iraq no fly zones nor the war in Kosovo were authorized by the UN. In fact the UN Sec.General opposed the no fly zones. Given my choice between making the UN happy, and saving the lives of thousands of Kurds, who flourished under the protection of the non fly zone between 92-2003, I am going to go with the Kurds. Right now both Britain and France are calling for No Fly zone.

The situation in Kosovo was particularly tragic, we spent weeks vainly attempting to get Russia to not veto a UN resolution, while Milosevic and his thugs were killing thousand and raping tens of thousands. Ultimately, the war was fought as NATO operation. However, it was in reality it was a US operation with more than 95% of combat mission being flown by US aircraft. Acting sooner would have saved thousands.

Good to know but what you say is does not contradict what I wrote.

Neither did the UN but they sure issued a lot of resolutions, talking about how bad the situation. If talking about doing good deeds saved lives the people of Darfur would be truly blessed. It didn't turn out to well for the people of Darfur did it?

Actually I am rather proud of the work the US government has done in slowing the spread of HIV in Africa, and providing humanitarian aid around the world, although much of it has been done by private charities.

I didn't mention AIDS ( I just quoted your whole post for simplicity).

If you are talking about Darfur, yes I am embarrassed. We can't save everybody, but I'm pretty sure that we could have made a big difference.

No, again, read the post, it gives the proper context.


How many USA military deaths and injuries will take to ameliorate your embarrassment over Libya? Were those killed in Beirut under Reagan or those killed in Somalia under Clinton enough for those situations?

 

[MichaelB]

I hope this is another Chavez delusion.

CARACAS (Reuters) The Libyan government has accepted a Venezuelan plan that seeks a negotiated solution to the uprising in the North African country, a spokesman for President Hugo Chavez said on Thursday. Arab League says Chavez plan for Libya only under review - Yahoo! News

Chavez negotiates with his opposition in much the same way Libya does - using the Armed Forces to repress opposition, arming his supporter thugs and encouraging violence against any and all opposition No wonder Libya accepted so quickly.

Thugocracy in action.

 

[haha]

I hope this is another Chavez delusion.

Chavez negotiates with his opposition in much the same way Libya does - using the Armed Forces to repress opposition, arming his supporter thugs and encouraging violence against any and all opposition No wonder Libya accepted so quickly.

Thugocracy in action.

Niall Ferguson has an excellent article in this weeks Newsweek about usually favorable American attitudes toward populist revolutions. He points out that the American Revolution is about the only one known to history that did not lead to chaos, to be replaced not by Democracy but by the the meanest cruelest most despotic autocracy that the meanest cruelest best organized groups can enforce. French Revolution -> Jacobin horror, Russian Revolution -> Bolsheviks, Chinese Revoltion of 1949 to Mao's horror show, overthrow of the Shah led to the Iranian theocracy, etc.

He also points out (he is a bona fide historian) that early results are essentially meaningless, as for example the Googleites in Egypt will go back to doing cool things, but the Muslim Brotherhood and other anti-democratic groups will carry on assembling the levers of power and suppression.

I would like to go on record as thinking that the last political figure the US had who knew his A. from a hole in the ground was Henry Kissinger. Perhaps because he was not exactly American?

Ha