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View Poll Results: What should Congress do about "Obamacare"
Overturn Obamacare and start over 20 24.69%
Let the law stand but work to improve it 61 75.31%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-23-2010, 11:19 AM   #21
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So we are running about 70% fix Obamacare vs 30% start over. Based on this thread and the other poll, it seems virtually everyone wants to fix the current system one way or another. I suspect most would agree that what we got last year was a slight modification of the current system with mandatory coverage, no denials, and weak competition. Seems a shame that the Republicans didn't cooperate to steer the plan in a sensible (from their perspective) direction instead of demonizing any change whatsoever as socialism and death panels. But we got what we got. So what happens now?

The Supreme Court will eventually rule on mandatory coverage. Any law scholars have an opinion on what will result if they find the mandate unconstitutional? My hope is that would simply strike down that single portion of the law leaving no denials for pre-existing coverage and other aspects in place. That would be a disaster for the insurance companies and, in my opinion, could be a positive outcome. Could there be a constitutional (commerce clause) approach based on nationwide exchanges - maybe even a national public option? If so, there would be tremendous pressure to accept something like that if the most likely alternative result would be Obamacare without a mandate.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:29 AM   #22
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Some think that the greatest problem of our healthcare system is that it is not universal. That includes me but, I gather from comments in the other thread, none of you. At any rate, to fix that problem requires wealth redistribution, which in turn requires government involvement. Increasing competition, rationalizing prices, tort reform, and similar ideas bandied about here are not relevant.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:40 PM   #23
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I would think the president is too strongly identified with the bill for repeal to increase his chances of re-election. I googled and found the article at the Rasmussen Report. An interesting point is raised:
Quote:
As Rasmussen Reports has documented, many individual components of the plan are popular, but the overall legislation remains unpopular. The unpopularity stems from the cost of the legislation in an era when voters would like to see federal spending go down rather than up.
One little-noted aspect of the debate was a disagreement over the purpose of the legislation. Most voters identified cost as the biggest problem with health care in America today, but about one-in-four said the lack of universal coverage was the top issue. Among those who see the lack of universal coverage as the biggest problem, 86% favored the legislation. However, among the majority who see cost as the biggest issue, 68% opposed the health care bill.
I think this indicates the public has a good understanding of the major attributes of the new law. The law does achieve universal coverage (eventually) and does very little to control costs.

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Originally Posted by hussong
The poll results are suspect in my opinion. I've seen polls with total opposite results.
This poll is entirely consistent with other polls I've seen.
Here's a wrap up of many reputable polls, including some with historical tracking of the same questions over time.

The law is not supported by a majority of Americans, and support is not growing as some politicians had hoped it would.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:43 PM   #24
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The poll results are suspect in my opinion.

...

Those who are lucky enough to have group rate insurance think reform are not needed...
I'd say your assumptions are suspect. I have a group rate insurance plan and feel very strongly that reforms are needed. But this bill is a mess. I'm sure I'm not alone.

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Seems a shame that the Republicans didn't cooperate to steer the plan in a sensible (from their perspective) direction...
Seems a shame to me that with a majority in Congress and holding the Executive office that the Democrats couldn't get their act together to pass a bill that didn't require special favors to certain segments, and that didn't have more support from the public. Why blame the R's when the D's were holding all the cards?

I say that as an independent, just observing the facts.

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Old 12-23-2010, 01:06 PM   #25
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(snip)Seems a shame to me that with a majority in Congress and holding the Executive office that the Democrats couldn't get their act together to pass a bill that didn't require special favors to certain segments, and that didn't have more support from the public.(snip)
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I don't understand how that happened. I don't follow politics closely at all but I thought the Dems had something like 2/3 of the seats in both House and Senate after the 2008 elections. With that kind of majority they should have been able to pass whatever they wanted to, even a single-payer plan, regardless of what the Republicans thought about it. What kept that from happening? How did we end up with this big complicated Act that nobody is really satisfied with?
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:16 PM   #26
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I don't understand how that happened. I don't follow politics closely at all but I thought the Dems had something like 2/3 of the seats in both House and Senate after the 2008 elections. With that kind of majority they should have been able to pass whatever they wanted to, even a single-payer plan, regardless of what the Republicans thought about it. What kept that from happening? How did we end up with this big complicated Act that nobody is really satisfied with?
Lots of reasons, but chief among them:
- In the Senate they needed 60 votes. There were 60 Democrats/pseudoDemocrats until there was an election in Massachusetts (one of the more liberal states) and a Republican won (many people believe the election was decided by public reaction to the Bill and the shenanigans used to craft it. It was a precursor of the 2010 election). This put a big kink in any plans to modify the "awkward" bill that Democrats had already passed in the Senate.
- Not all the Democrats are liberal, and they needed a lot of them in both houses. To get the needed votes, a lot of ugly deals were struck.

The Republicans put forth many ideas and plans, but there's not much of that in the present law. What's there is almost solely the product of Democratic politicians. You are right--they controlled the House, the Senate and the Presidency.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:38 PM   #27
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The Republicans put forth many ideas and plans, but there's not much of that in the present law. What's there is almost solely the product of Democratic politicians. You are right--they controlled the House, the Senate and the Presidency.
Past tense now.....DID control..........
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:45 PM   #28
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Some think that the greatest problem of our healthcare system is that it is not universal. That includes me but, I gather from comments in the other thread, none of you. At any rate, to fix that problem requires wealth redistribution, which in turn requires government involvement. Increasing competition, rationalizing prices, tort reform, and similar ideas bandied about here are not relevant.
Nope, I agree - we need universal healthcare. I vote for a single payer system and a lot of doctors do too. Oooh, I just found this cool emoticon that kind of sums it up:
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:09 PM   #29
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You would think "the greatest country in the world" could figure this out, there are a few examples. Mexico is working on it now, maybe we should ask them...

CountryStart Date of Universal Health CareSystem Type
Norway1912Single Payer
New Zealand1938Two Tier
Japan1938Single Payer
Germany1941Insurance Mandate
Belgium1945Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom1948Single Payer
Kuwait1950Single Payer
Sweden1955Single Payer
Bahrain1957Single Payer
Brunei1958Single Payer
Canada1966Single Payer
Netherlands1966Two-Tier
Austria1967Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates1971Single Payer
Finland1972Single Payer
Slovenia1972Single Payer
Denmark1973Two-Tier
Luxembourg1973Insurance Mandate
France1974Two-Tier
Australia1975Two Tier
Ireland1977Two-Tier
Italy1978Single Payer
Portugal1979Single Payer
Cyprus1980Single Payer
Greece1983Insurance Mandate
Spain1986Single Payer
South Korea1988Insurance Mandate
Iceland1990Single Payer
Hong Kong1993Two-Tier
Singapore1993Two-Tier
Switzerland1994Insurance Mandate
Israel1995Two-Tier
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:05 PM   #30
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You would think "the greatest country in the world" could figure this out, there are a few examples. Mexico is working on it now, maybe we should ask them...
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:53 PM   #31
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And what is two tier



Also... reading this it seems that Nazi's had an insurance mandate


(OK... this should kill this thread referring to Nazis.... but hey... I am serious...who would have thunk it)...


Oppp... edit to add... a number of countries started a LONG time ago... so why did the US not do it We had a lot of liberal politicians before WWII and even after... heck, if Johnson did not do it I do not think many others could....
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:11 PM   #32
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And what is two tier..
Basic single payer Plus private insurance. Although the UK is listed above as single payer (the default), we had company provided health insurance as well when we changed jobs in 1979. Fortunately we never had need to utilize our private plan.

Two-tier health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Most countries have both public and privately funded health care
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:15 PM   #33
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Why blame the R's when the D's were holding all the cards?
I say that as an independent, just observing the facts.

-ERD50
Why blame the D's when the R's are the ones refusing to go along with anything Obama proposes simply because he proposed it no matter how good it is. They(the R's) are to blame for the lack of change in the healthcare and tax reforms that Obama tried to make. The president has limited power. Congress has more power.

I say that as an independent, just observing the facts.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:25 PM   #34
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Here we go with the partisan finger pointing...

I think I hear Porky's sleigh landing on the roof...
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:27 PM   #35
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And what is two tier
A combination of a government insurance program with private insurance to supplement? I'm only guessing but France has two tier, and based on the description of the French system in another thread, that's what it would be.
Quote:
Also... reading this it seems that Nazi's had an insurance mandate

(OK... this should kill this thread referring to Nazis.... but hey... I am serious...who would have thunk it)...
You mentioned them in a purely historical context. Who else could it have been in Germany in 1941? I hope that's not enough to get the thread locked!

Quote:
Oppp... edit to add... a number of countries started a LONG time ago... so why did the US not do it We had a lot of liberal politicians before WWII and even after... heck, if Johnson did not do it I do not think many others could....
I recently listened to an audiobook, Conscience of a Liberal. IIRC this author's hypothesis is, universal health coverage wasn't put into place in the US in the 1930's because the southern Democrats who were part of the New Deal's political backing wouldn't have voted for anything that would have required desegregation of hospitals. Then during WWII, as I understand it, health insurance got linked to jobs—it was a perk that could be offered even when wage controls were in place. By the time Johnson came along, maybe it appeared that main problem with health care in the US was that some people—the elderly and low income—weren't getting it through jobs, so Medicare and Medicaid were created specifically for those groups, instead of a "start from scratch" revamp of the whole system. But again, that's just a guess.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:28 PM   #36
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Why blame the D's when the R's are the ones refusing to go along with anything Obama proposes simply because he proposed it no matter how good it is. They(the R's) are to blame for the lack of change in the healthcare and tax reforms that Obama tried to make. The president has limited power. Congress has more power.

I say that as an independent, just observing the facts.
You missed a fact - the D's controlled Congress. They could pass anything they decided w/o a single R vote. There is nothing the R's could do to stop them. You are right, Congress has the power, all the President can do is veto it, but that wasn't the issue here since he is a D also.

Though I'm not 'blaming' anyone , I was responding to those blaming the R's.

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Old 12-23-2010, 09:32 PM   #37
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Here we go with the finger pointing...

I think I hear Porky's sleigh landing on the roof...
Nooooo! Pleeeese don't close the thread! I'm sorry I asked!! I really wasn't trying to start a fight. My bad!
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:39 PM   #38
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You would think "the greatest country in the world" could figure this out, there are a few examples. Mexico is working on it now, maybe we should ask them...

CountryStart Date of Universal Health CareSystem Type
Norway1912Single Payer
New Zealand1938Two Tier
Japan1938Single Payer
Germany1941Insurance Mandate
Belgium1945Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom1948Single Payer
Kuwait1950Single Payer
Sweden1955Single Payer
Bahrain1957Single Payer
Brunei1958Single Payer
Canada1966Single Payer
Netherlands1966Two-Tier
Austria1967Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates1971Single Payer
Finland1972Single Payer
Slovenia1972Single Payer
Denmark1973Two-Tier
Luxembourg1973Insurance Mandate
France1974Two-Tier
Australia1975Two Tier
Ireland1977Two-Tier
Italy1978Single Payer
Portugal1979Single Payer
Cyprus1980Single Payer
Greece1983Insurance Mandate
Spain1986Single Payer
South Korea1988Insurance Mandate
Iceland1990Single Payer
Hong Kong1993Two-Tier
Singapore1993Two-Tier
Switzerland1994Insurance Mandate
Israel1995Two-Tier
I am kind of surprised by the dates. About two thirds of these countries started their systems within my lifetime, and nearly half of them since I've been an adult. I had gotten the impression (I don't know where from) that most countries with universal health coverage had had it since the 40's or before.
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Old 12-24-2010, 01:43 AM   #39
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I am kind of surprised by the dates. About two thirds of these countries started their systems within my lifetime, and nearly half of them since I've been an adult. I had gotten the impression (I don't know where from) that most countries with universal health coverage had had it since the 40's or before.

I looked at the list again... and have the same surprise....



pssst.... not trying to point fingers or get the thread closed... but if you listen to what was being said when the bill was passed... Obama told the Rs that he had won and they should get on board... they did not listen... the Ds said we have enough votes to get it passed without you... so we do not have to put in anything to get your votes (or very little to get Snowe and the other one).... it was a power play, pure and simple... it backfired on the Ds... a lot of them lost their seat and we will see where we go from here....


BTW, I am against all the spending.... but am for some of the regulations... I still wish they had passed a bill that did what they said there wanted to do which was do something about the cost... not about who pays... (sorry... I know the arguments about bending the curve and we have to have everyone on board etc. etc.. I just do not believe them to be true... so, to keep Porky away... let not go down this road much)...
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:41 AM   #40
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It's the D's. No, it's the R's. No, it's the P's.

Actually, it's the people.

It's worse than before - start again. No, it just needs tweaking.

It was lousy before and still is. Just a little less so.

We cannot have a vibrant and effective system that enables everyone access to reasonable healthcare in a country where the majority of citizens seem to feel it is acceptable for 1/4 of the population to earn less than a "living wage" - what is needed to pay for health care or meet other minimum standards of modern life.

The most vocal critics of the recent reform are those that made every effort to discourage and impede the process, threw up every possible obsticle, and now criticize the outcome.

There are no simple fixes to a system that is built around healthcare intermediation, is rampantly discriminatory and overflows with conflict of interest, allows individuals and investors to profit by exploiting regulatory loopholes and the misfortune of some.

The only real "fix;' is single payer universal healthcare.
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