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ripper1 · 11-02-2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet

I think the best guess as to what reasonable thinking bankruptcy courts would do is that they would share the pain across all citizens. This would include cutting gov't spending in non-pension areas (and there is a ton of "political reward" spending in Illinois to cut) and increasing revenue by, for example, taxing public pensions.

I think the toughest part for the courts would be coming up with a method that ensures that the funds, once corrected, stay funded in the future. Today, even as the ~~crooks~~ politicians in Springfield battle over which of them is going to take the biggest political hit due to the pension issue, they refuse to include a mandatory funding provision. They insist that funding the pensions (even the very reduced pensions of the future) must be a "suggested" rather than mandatory annual activity. And that's what got us into this mess to begin with.

Taxing the pensions on the state level would go a long way toward reforming this thing. Why should someone get free income.

Chuckanut · 11-02-2013, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatordoc50

The difference is significant. The argument has always been that federal workers were smarter and better educated than regular folk. But that argument loses its shine when you realize that all their work is contracted out to the regular folk in the private sector.

I have never seen any proof that Federal workers are smarter than regular folk, nor that all their work is contracted out to the private sector. Can you provide evidence?

Chuckanut · 11-02-2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper1

Taxing the pensions on the state level would go a long way toward reforming this thing. Why should someone get free income.

Are all pensions in Illinois tax free or just public pensions?

ripper1 · 11-02-2013, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut

Are all pensions in Illinois tax free or just public pensions?

Yes....

ripper1 · 11-02-2013, 10:42 AM

There is a lot of variance on who gets what and how much in Illinois pensions and benefits. In my case I worked for city of Chicago for 30 years and paid 8.5% into my pension unlike teachers who pay only 2%. I pay this year 750 toward my healthcare premium for me and my wife and the new rate for 2014 will be 1050. We will be phased out of city plan in 2017 and dumped into Obamacare. Chicago police pay no health premium in retirement until medicare. My cola was delayed for 3 years. Others get theirs right away at retirement. Not to say poor me but we do tend to hear about more of the extreme cases.

Chuckanut · 11-02-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper1

. Not to say poor me but we do tend to hear about more of the extreme cases.

Yes, we hear about the guy who gamed the system to get a 50% pension increase that was not deserved, but we never hear about the large number of other people who gave an honest day's work (and sometimes more) for 30+ years. I believe its called confirmation bias.

Gatordoc50 · 11-02-2013, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut

I have never seen any proof that Federal workers are smarter than regular folk, nor that all their work is contracted out to the private sector. Can you provide evidence?

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...pay10_ST_N.htm

In this article you can see the remark made by federal union reps about superiority of government employees. It wasn't my personal view. The POTUS also has made similar statements. I'll get back to you on the contracting.

Chuckanut · 11-02-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatordoc50

Federal workers earning double their private counterparts - USATODAY.com

In this article you can see the remark made by federal union reps about superiority of government employees. It wasn't my personal view. The POTUS also has made similar statements. I'll get back to you on the contracting.

Thanks for the article. The need for reform seems to be there. Federal workers need to paid near the market rate for their location. Since market rates are usually a range of salary, even a bit above the mean would be nice and probably less than now.

ERD50 · 11-02-2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut

Yes, we hear about the guy who gamed the system to get a 50% pension increase that was not deserved, but we never hear about the large number of other people who gave an honest day's work (and sometimes more) for 30+ years. I believe its called confirmation bias.

No, I don't think it is confirmation bias. It's just what makes news and what doesn't.

The news did not report all the planes that landed safely at ORD today, or the houses that didn't burn down, or the cars that didn't crash either.

-ERD50

youbet · 11-02-2013, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper1

There is a lot of variance on who gets what and how much in Illinois pensions and benefits. In my case I worked for city of Chicago for 30 years and paid 8.5% into my pension unlike teachers who pay only 2%.

Note.... to avoid confusion, teachers outside of Chicago pay 9% at this point with proposals that they'll pay more in the future. Their contributions are mandatory payroll deductions and are never missed.

At some point, the Chicago Teachers Union negotiated having the City Of Chicago pay 7% of the 9% in behalf of the Chicago teachers. So, 9% is contributed, but only 2% via direct payroll deduction.

Gatordoc50 · 11-03-2013, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet

Note.... to avoid confusion, teachers outside of Chicago pay 9% at this point with proposals that they'll pay more in the future. Their contributions are mandatory payroll deductions and are never missed.

At some point, the Chicago Teachers Union negotiated having the City Of Chicago pay 7% of the 9% in behalf of the Chicago teachers. So, 9% is contributed, but only 2% via direct payroll deduction.

I visited Chicago for the first time last spring and enjoyed my stay. I will be sad to see it go. You would think that a city with a GDP greater than most countries would be in good shape. At least the Cubbies will be put out of their misery.

Mulligan · 11-03-2013, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet

Note.... to avoid confusion, teachers outside of Chicago pay 9% at this point with proposals that they'll pay more in the future. Their contributions are mandatory payroll deductions and are never missed.

At some point, the Chicago Teachers Union negotiated having the City Of Chicago pay 7% of the 9% in behalf of the Chicago teachers. So, 9% is contributed, but only 2% via direct payroll deduction.

I keep reading the state has not been adequately funding their fair share for years, but is there a set number they are supposed to be doing? The math doesn't add up to me based on my pension. To receive a 75% final 3 year ave. pension with 2% annual COLA, the contribution rate is 14.5% employee and 14.5% matched by school district. This is 29% and the system while strong is not 100% prefunded. Maybe Illinois system does not pay out that well, but if it does, there needs to be a lot more being kicked in on BOTH sides if it was to be an actuarially sound system, I would think.

NW-Bound · 11-03-2013, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatordoc50

I visited Chicago for the first time last spring and enjoyed my stay. I will be sad to see it go. You would think that a city with a GDP greater than most countries would be in good shape...

Someone has noted that most past civilizations hit their peak once they had built their largest edifices. Look at the Egyptians, the Greek, the Roman, and various European countries. Here in the US, Detroit was once called "Paris of the West". One of Mark Twain's famous quotes is "History does not repeat, but it rhymes".

It appears that after several generations that build up wealth, their offsprings often fail to maintain it. That is seen times and times again in private fortunes, and perhaps unavoidable in collective wealths too.

NoiseBoy · 11-03-2013, 05:59 PM

The Institute of Government & Public Affairs at the University of Illinois has recently released an analysis of the state's budget situation. And I quote,

"In three new papers, IGPA’s Fiscal Futures Project takes a close look at the income tax increases of 2011 and subsequent effects on the state budget when they begin to sunset in 2015. This looming fiscal cliff is part of a long-term fiscal imbalance."

The full press release and links to the referenced papers are here:

The Fiscal Futures Project releases new budget analysis | Institute of Government and Public Affairs

ripper1 · 11-09-2013, 10:25 AM

Well, it looks like the Chicago Park District has caved to the pension reform being touted in Illinois. Gov Squeezy will ink soon. Mayor Emanuel of Chicago is calling it a template for the rest of the other pensions in Chicago. This appears to be a canary in a mine. Will there be a court challenge? Stay tuned.

Gatordoc50 · 11-09-2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper1

Well, it looks like the Chicago Park District has caved to the pension reform being touted in Illinois. Gov Squeezy will ink soon. Mayor Emanuel of Chicago is calling it a template for the rest of the other pensions in Chicago. This appears to be a canary in a mine. Will there be a court challenge? Stay tuned.

Link to article.
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#sectio...e/p2p-78095174

ripper1 · 11-09-2013, 03:34 PM

The following changes are increased retirement age to 58 for those who have 30 or more years. Previously they could leave at 50 with minimum of 30 years employment. Contributions to pensions increased from 9% to 12% phased in over 5 years. COLA for retirees changed from 3% simple interest to 1/2 of CPI or 3% whichever less and staggered COLA holidays in 2015, 2017, and 2019. People age 45 by 1/2015 would be exempt from the age requirement.

retiredatfifty · 12-14-2013, 10:26 AM

I don't see these pension obligations as being any different than bonds the city or State sold to investors.

haha · 12-14-2013, 10:45 AM

Well maybe; but freeze pensions and workers will still be available, probably at the same wage or even less if necessary. Default on bonds, and that story changes. Workers need money to live; no one needs a bond for any purpose other than to give him a steady, safe return.