Subsidies - What Do You Think?

[ERD50]

We obviously have a different definition of the word dumped...my definition is that farmers produced milk knowing it will be dumped to get government money. ....

OK, I was talking about just plain old "dumped" (physically), regardless of the reason. That's how I read the posts, was milk currently being dumped or not.

Obviously, if zero milk was being physically "dumped", then no dumping could be blamed on subsidies. It just seemed like a good, and easiest, first step in the process.

I'll go out on a limb here, and without doing further research, I'll make an educated guess that subsidies are not the reason for that physical milk dumping, since the % is so small. Like you say, just some waste due to production of a perishable product. That actually seems very low, considering.

I think that puts us in agreement? It was just the terminology tripping us up?

-ERD50

 

[flintnational]

NY taxpayers to pay $48,000 per Amazon HQ job

Linked article about the subsidies provided to Amazon for locating their HQ2 in NY. I think many States do this on some level. It's a lot of money and I am sure controversial to many.

"According to Amazon, the cost per job for New York taxpayers is $48,000, compared to $22,000 for Virginia and $13,000 for Tennessee."

"New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson issued a statement saying: "Amazon is one of the richest companies in the world...I also don’t understand why a company as rich as Amazon would need nearly $2 billion in public money for its expansion plans at a time when New York desperately needs money for affordable housing, transportation, infrastructure and education." "

 

[VanWinkle]

Linked article about the subsidies provided to Amazon for locating their HQ2 in NY. I think many States do this on some level. It's a lot of money and I am sure controversial to many.

"According to Amazon, the cost per job for New York taxpayers is $48,000, compared to $22,000 for Virginia and $13,000 for Tennessee."

"New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson issued a statement saying: "Amazon is one of the richest companies in the world...I also don’t understand why a company as rich as Amazon would need nearly $2 billion in public money for its expansion plans at a time when New York desperately needs money for affordable housing, transportation, infrastructure and education." "

The only reason they "need" it is because cities/states will offer subsidies.
If no one offered subsidies, they would locate by what made the most economic sense to the company.

Maybe the cities/states way of joining the me, me, me society.

 

[ERD50]

Linked article about the subsidies provided to Amazon for locating their HQ2 in NY. I think many States do this on some level. It's a lot of money and I am sure controversial to many.

"According to Amazon, the cost per job for New York taxpayers is $48,000, compared to $22,000 for Virginia and $13,000 for Tennessee."

"New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson issued a statement saying: "Amazon is one of the richest companies in the world...I also don’t understand why a company as rich as Amazon would need nearly $2 billion in public money for its expansion plans at a time when New York desperately needs money for affordable housing, transportation, infrastructure and education." "

I would tell Corey Johnson it has nothing to do with 'need'. It is Amazon's responsibility to its business to negotiate the best deal they can get. If Amazon can get a better deal from NY than they can from VA or TN, then that's what they should do. Why blame Amazon?

A part of me thinks that deals like this should be made illegal, so we don't have different municipalities fighting in a race to the bottom. But the libertarian in me fears that cure may be worse than the disease.

-ERD50

 

[pj.mask]

I know the family farm receives (and has for years) significant subsidies for not planting crops on some acreage as a form of crop price support. Farmers will be the first to complain about city folks getting handouts but blame the gov involvement in food for their maladies.

Farming is a high risk business. Something like 8% return so if you want to earn 80k you have to risk a million bucks a year (crop insurance might turn that to a small loss).

I’ll keep my engineering job.

 

[Vacation4us]

ERD, for some kids the only meals they get are the free ones at school. Talk to teachers in poor school districts. Not having enough to eat affects people both physically and psychologically sometimes for life. I had 3 kids on my caseload that were born with normal IQ’s but by age 5 were diagnosed with intellectual disabilities previously known as mental retardation due to a lack of FOOD.

I don't doubt some people lack adequate access to food, and this will have consequences.

BUT there is no IQ test for infants and most "autism" is not diagnosed until 3. I just don't see your specific example as possible to prove.

I have met plenty a parent that state that their child was normal and due to some other party's negligence they now have a disabled child. True, I am sure in some rare cases but not every "mental retardation" case.

I have an ex addict nephew. ( whom I love, hope he truly stays clean ) who can't support himself has a free phone, healthcare, blah blah blah. He will soon become a father. I can only imagine the poor environment this innocent babe will be raised in. People make choices in life that have consequences.

I am not for subsidies. The many ruin it for the few truly deserving. Until this changes I am against all subsidies.

 

[Vacation4us]

As long as billionaires are getting farm subsidies and stadiums paid for with tax dollars, I will quite proudly do all the legal Medicaid planning I can in my later years with zero guilt.

2 wrongs don't make it right

I will leave it at that.

 

[Teacher Terry]

These kids were born with normal intelligence and were 3 siblings. They were doing well in a foster home and then returned to their mom that because of her low intelligence didn’t under that she wasn’t feeding them enough. They all ended up MR with no reversal possible due to lack of nutrition. You can tell a child with MR as a baby by the milestones they miss, physical abilities, etc. We give tax breaks to the rich yet are afraid that one unneedy person might get a free meal when they don’t deserve it. I truly have no words!

 

[Huston55]

I am not for subsidies. The many ruin it for the few truly deserving. Until this changes I am against all subsidies.

Please expand. I see that you’re married, a homeowner, a parent, employed with health benefits, and will benefit from pension contributions. Each of these makes you a recipient of “subsidies” so, perhaps you mean something different when you say you’re against all of them.

You may not have seen the first post in this thread but, given that we all likely have somewhat differing views, the purpose is to describe how you would change subsidies for the optimum result.

 

[FUEGO]

Please expand. I see that you’re married, a homeowner, a parent, employed with health benefits, and will benefit from pension contributions. Each of these makes you a recipient of “subsidies” so, perhaps you mean something different when you say you’re against all of them.

You may not have seen the first post in this thread but, given that we all likely have somewhat differing views, the purpose is to describe how you would change subsidies for the optimum result.

I'm just gonna save that other person the trouble of responding and copy/paste my reply that was the third post on this thread.

I want to keep all the good subsidies I currently receive. Because I helped pay for them gosh darn it!

All those other subsidies that I don't currently get only go to lazy good-for-nothings and should be eliminated immediately. Until I qualify for those same benefits, at which point they should be immediately reinstated. Because I helped pay for them gosh darn it!

<this seems to summarize the mentality of most people>

 

[ERD50]

These kids were born with normal intelligence and were 3 siblings. They were doing well in a foster home and then returned to their mom that because of her low intelligence didn’t under that she wasn’t feeding them enough. They all ended up MR with no reversal possible due to lack of nutrition. You can tell a child with MR as a baby by the milestones they miss, physical abilities, etc. We give tax breaks to the rich yet are afraid that one unneedy person might get a free meal when they don’t deserve it. I truly have no words!

I'm assuming this is a reply to a comment that you made that referenced my earlier post (I wish you would actually quote people, so we can find the post and be sure where your comment is aimed, there's often a few conversations going on at once.)

So I think it goes back to this post #116:

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f52/subsidies-what-do-you-think-93469.html#post2100164

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
As a former social worker there is real poverty and hunger in this country. Please don’t make light of it.

Since you didn't quote anyone, it's hard to know which post bothered you.

But since I used an extreme example to illustrate the problem (asking if choosing $8.99 steak over $18.99 steak qualifies as 'food insecure'), I'll reply in case you or anyone else felt I was making light of an important issue.

My goal was just the opposite - I used that example to show how these definitions and bad statistics make light of an important problem. Crying "Wolf", ends up desensitizing people to the issue. Proper facts figures should be used, so we understand just how bad the issue really is. And can prioritize properly, as there are other problems that need our attention as well. Should the "squeaky wheel" get the grease, over a more serious issue that didn't exaggerate their plight, but chose truth and honesty instead?

I've heard that 'food insecure household' figure used in a PSA to supposedly back up a statement that 1 in 6 kids "don't know where their next meal is coming from". But the 'food insecure' definition says no such thing. Once someone starts making up numbers, I lose interest in helping them. Give it to me straight, if you can't do that, then obviously the problem isn't as bad as you say, and why should I continue to listen to you after you lied to me? I'll find another cause to support - one that doesn't lie to me.

-ERD50

So I would say your poignant anecdote makes my point. The very real and serious problems need attention that is proportional to their seriousness. But if we water it down with meaningless statistics, resources get directed to the wrong things.

You are addressing a problem that is far, far beyond what is called "food insecurity", and it should be addressed as such. But if money gets spread across lesser issues, it may not get to where we really need it.

-ERD50

 

[Teacher Terry]

I was replying to Vacation. Too bad there isn’t a cure for lack of empathy!

 

[ERD50]

I was replying to Vacation. Too bad there isn’t a cure for lack of empathy!

Yes, but it appeared he referenced a post from you that was referencing my post.

I have plenty of empathy. That's exactly why I don't like to see the bad situations misrepresented. It's 'crying Wolf', and that can harm those who need the most help, by redirecting limited resources to other 'squeaky wheels'. No one should want that.

-ERD50

 

[Vacation4us]

I was replying to Vacation. Too bad there isn’t a cure for lack of empathy!

Empathy comes with my job description, I am a nurse. Instead of labeling someone maybe you should read my post more clearly.

As a nurse who has worked with newborns 4 thirty years my comment was directed at your example of "born with a normal IQ".

Unless an infant is born with an obvious chromosomal defect, IQ and mental function can not be ascertained from birth. Period.

In your response you state the mother had her children returned to her and underfed them causing their significant delays. So the outcome was not caused by a lack of subsidies but a lack of care. Both on the mothers part and on the follow up of social services. This is a tragedy. We agree on that!

To the topic of this thread:

My problem with subsidies is FRAUD.

There are people truly deserving of our support but as I previously stated the many ruin it for the few.

 

[VanWinkle]

Empathy comes with my job description, I am a nurse. Instead of labeling someone maybe you should read my post more clearly.

As a nurse who has worked with newborns 4 thirty years my comment was directed at your example of "born with a normal IQ".

Unless an infant is born with an obvious chromosomal defect, IQ and mental function can not be ascertained from birth. Period.

In your response you state the mother had her children returned to her and underfed them causing their significant delays. So the outcome was not caused by a lack of subsidies but a lack of care. Both on the mothers part and on the follow up of social services. This is a tragedy. We agree on that!

To the topic of this thread:

My problem with subsidies is FRAUD.

There are people truly deserving of our support but as I previously stated the many ruin it for the few.

Thanks for the clarification and I couldn't agree more with your position.
Sometimes real life experience is more enlightening than "book" learning.

VW

 

[Teacher Terry]

According to the Department of Labor welfare fraud is 2.67%.

 

[Chuckanut]

I like subsidies. They bring together the both sides of the aisle regardless of political persuasion. Look at the recent Farm Bill passed happily by both sides of the aisle. It makes the EV subsidy look like chicken feed. (Pun intended). 867 billion dollars much of it to relatives of farmers, and farmers who are already very wealthy. And it passe the House with huge support on both sides. I am surprised they all did not get together and sing Kumbaya during a group hug.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...is-out-heres-whats-it/?utm_term=.ed7e0d404629

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/12/house-passes-farm-bill-1060916

See how good subsidies can be?

 

[Amethyst]

TT, I'm a little puzzled...you say the children's mother wasn't smart enough to feed/nourish her children correctly. How would subsidies have helped, if the poor mother didn't know how to feed her kids? Seems like maternal education might have been the key here.

That said, I willingly pay taxes to help hungry fellow citizens.

They were doing well in a foster home and then returned to their mom that because of her low intelligence didn’t under that she wasn’t feeding them enough. They all ended up MR with no reversal possible due to lack of nutrition.

 

[flintnational]

I like subsidies. They bring together the both sides of the aisle regardless of political persuasion. Look at the recent Farm Bill passed happily by both sides of the aisle. It makes the EV subsidy look like chicken feed. (Pun intended). 867 billion dollars much of it to relatives of farmers, and farmers who are already very wealthy. And it passe the House with huge support on both sides. I am surprised they all did not get together and sing Kumbaya during a group hug. ............

See how good subsidies can be?

Ah, the farm bill. What's wrong with the vast subsidies for healthy food like broccoli, carrots, blueberries and kale? Oh, I forgot. We subsidize corn, wheat, soy and sugar instead. All are used to fatten animals and produce processed food. But I am sure they do not have the same affect on people, right?

 

[Vacation4us]

According to the Department of Labor welfare fraud is 2.67%.

Welfare,Medicaid, MediCal,SNAP,HUD,SDI etc,etc,etc. does anyone even know how many programs there are? I will add that undetected fraud that is quantified is a made up number.

There are intelligent people on this board that think it's ok to game the subsidies because others do it too.

I personally and ethically think fraud or gaming the system is wrong. NEED based aid is ok.

Need vs Wants

Costs vs Benefits

 

[Teacher Terry]

A, in that situation it wouldn’t have. My point was that lack of adequate nutrition causes brain damage. It’s one reason we need to make sure that poor people are adequately fed. This is especially true for children. Or as a society we will pay in bigger ways when these people won’t be capable of maintaining employment. Some people don’t mind that the rich get all sorts of subsidies but don’t want a dime to go to those less fortunate. I am done discussing this because people with empathy get it and those that are convinced otherwise refuse to believe the facts about fraud.

 

[Texas Proud]

A, in that situation it wouldn’t have. My point was that lack of adequate nutrition causes brain damage. It’s one reason we need to make sure that poor people are adequately fed. This is especially true for children. Or as a society we will pay in bigger ways when these people won’t be capable of maintaining employment. Some people don’t mind that the rich get all sorts of subsidies but don’t want a dime to go to those less fortunate. I am done discussing this because people with empathy get it and those that are convinced otherwise refuse to believe the facts about fraud.

But your example, even though tragic, does not support this argument here... I would bet big money that the woman you described was either able to get or was getting a good amount of subsidies from the gvmt... her children were not affected from lack of funding... it was lack of care... both from the mother and from the system... why was she able to get her children back? Why was she not supervised on a regular basis? And if she was supervised then why did the case worker not take the children away from her again?


Houston ISD is now giving free lunch to all their students... yes, every one... and this on top of free breakfasts for all students!!! And I am sure that a good number of the families still get food stamps or other welfare for those meals... https://www.houstonisd.org/page/114635




So, the question then becomes how much is too much?






OH... was looking a bit more and there are schools where they also offer dinner!! And meals during the summer....


https://www.houstonisd.org/Page/70384

 

[Rianne]

DH always adds the lessons of history when this discussion arise. I'm horrified when he explains what the Romans did to their weak and handicapped. Yet we flock to see Rome and drool over the historic sites. We're in awe of the Palace of Marseille. Look into that history and think about empathy.

IMHO humans are pretty brutal. I"m not finding a lot of compassion, kindness, generosity etc in human history. And it's really troubling. Even the history of Popes in the Catholic Church. Kindness, compassion, charity...really? I consider myself a good person, love to help, want to be part of a better society. Historically, human nature is quite different.

 

[aja8888]

According to the Department of Labor welfare fraud is 2.67%.

Yep, those are only the ones that get caught and become a statistic.

 

[Breedlove]

I remember my DW years ago wanted to go home to Ohio from Texas . She decided the cheapest way was the Dog Greyhound !

So she is riding the bus and people are all mad cussing and yelling getting off here and there . One of the stops she talked to the bus driver he explained to her that the same people ride his bus every month to file welfare in separate states Texas, Ark. Tenn. . We never could figure out how that worked but needless to say she took an airplane back to Texas .