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Old 12-07-2010, 06:42 PM   #41
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What else could I possibly mean? If "we have to pay it back at some point" then at that point we would be debt free. So, if we never have to be debt free (as you point out), then we don't "have to pay it back at some point".
Everything we borrow, we have to pay back. The US has never defaulted on any debt obligation that I'm aware of. If you loaned money to the US by buying a 10 year note and they stopped paying you interest and didn't return all the principal, then they haven't paid you back.

Since we have been running deficits for so long they pay you back by borrowing from someone else. Revolving debt. The US may never be debt free again, but still have a record of always paying back the money it borrows.
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Old 12-07-2010, 07:00 PM   #42
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Everything we borrow, we have to pay back. The US has never defaulted on any debt obligation that I'm aware of.
This is just sophistry. You try to interpret "debt" as a specific obligation, e.g., a treasury bond. The post I commented on said: "How complicated is this really. We are in debt, we have to pay it back at some point." What is the "it"? A treasury bond? No, evidently "it" refers to the total of what we owe. And so far as I can tell, we do not have to pay that back. People keep saying that in these discussions, but it makes no sense to me.
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Old 12-07-2010, 07:33 PM   #43
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I guess as long as both parties can pander to their bases with borrowed money everything will be alright.
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Old 12-07-2010, 07:49 PM   #44
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If this passes per the proposal, this is good news for me. They are proposing a 2% reduction in SS payroll taxes. That will be over $2000 extra take home pay for our family, plus the $3000+ that extending the Bush tax cuts continues to save us.
This is what I was thinking also. No plans to increase my spending as I will just continue to shore up my balance sheet. Someone else mentioned increased gas prices as a drain on the economy and I have some appreciated shares of UCO that I will probably sell to cover this cost increase. Or if I am tryly going to be in the class of 2011 then no more driving everyday to work.

This entire process on tit-for-tat to get something passed in Congress reminds me that many times comittees start out trying to design a horse but actually end up with a camel. Not sure what we will get out of this in the long run.

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Old 12-07-2010, 08:07 PM   #45
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Obama struggles to keep Dems from killing tax cuts - Yahoo! Finance=
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:19 PM   #46
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That tax break was for employees, I believe business is gonna have to pay full tax. Gov't want workers to go spend that extra 2%. Believe most will be blowing the "gift" on filling up the gas tank. Thanks in part to the Fed relentless effort to devalue the dollar, oil prices gonna put the cabash on robust consumer spending. Business spending on equipment will likely go bonkers come Jan 1, whether hiring does is a different story.
What can I say I screwed up, I trusted Alan that it was an employer cut.

You are probably right the 2% will be helpful for folks filling gas tanks as they travel around the area applying for jobs along with 1,000s of others. Oh wait unemployed folks don't pay payroll tax. I have a friend who get laid of in the summer of 2008 right before all the crap hit. Because he was an early casualty he has missed out on all of the extensions including this one.
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:28 PM   #47
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Old 12-07-2010, 08:31 PM   #48
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What can I say I screwed up, I trusted Alan that it was an employer cut. .
Sorry about that

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:03 PM   #49
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What can I say I screwed up, I trusted Alan that it was an employer cut.

You are probably right the 2% will be helpful for folks filling gas tanks as they travel around the area applying for jobs along with 1,000s of others. Oh wait unemployed folks don't pay payroll tax. I have a friend who get laid of in the summer of 2008 right before all the crap hit. Because he was an early casualty he has missed out on all of the extensions including this one.
I have a friend who was involuntarily ER'd by MegaCorp right after the crap hit the fan and he's still drawing unemployment. Has allowed him a two year deferral on tapping his retirement funds and now he's getting a third.

At one point he decided he couldn't keep taking the money so he quit filing. A helpful government employee called him two months later and encouraged him to sign back up as they had plenty of funds. So he did.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:11 PM   #50
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I have a friend who was involuntarily ER'd by MegaCorp right after the crap hit the fan and he's still drawing unemployment. Has allowed him a two year deferral on tapping his retirement funds and now he's getting a third.

At one point he decided he couldn't keep taking the money so he quit filing. A helpful government employee called him two months later and encouraged him to sign back up as they had plenty of funds. So he did.
Your friend is pretty fortunate especially compared to mine. Having surviving two bouts of (different) cancers his Cobra was $1300 month for a 55 year old, fortunately he qualified for VA and switched to them a year ago. Everytime they pass an extension he calls up the unemployment office and they tell sorry you were laid off to early to qualify for the extensions so he got the basic 26 weeks.
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Old 12-07-2010, 10:33 PM   #51
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The real "treat" will be when our elected economic geniuses decide to give everyone a raise by cutting the employee SS contribution by 4% and add it on to the "employer's side" of the SS tax. Employees won't make any additional money over time, but the sponsors will be able to say they gave everyone more money to spend without increasing the deficit. I think most people would believe it, too.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:59 AM   #52
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Your friend is pretty fortunate especially compared to mine. Having surviving two bouts of (different) cancers his Cobra was $1300 month for a 55 year old, fortunately he qualified for VA and switched to them a year ago. Everytime they pass an extension he calls up the unemployment office and they tell sorry you were laid off to early to qualify for the extensions so he got the basic 26 weeks.
Sorry to hear your friend is having a rough time.

In a way, they are unwitting market timers.
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:58 AM   #53
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They are no longer talking about maintaining the status quo. They are talking about cutting my taxes significantly.

I don't need 5 or 6 new humongous flat-screen HD TVs, but thanks for the tax cut anyways.

I just cannot believe that most Americans would allow these tax cuts that benefit the wealthy so disproportionately.
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:59 AM   #54
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I just cannot believe that most Americans would allow these tax cuts that benefit the wealthy so disproportionately.
I guess it depends on what you call a tax cut (e.g. what is the starting point for the cut). If we start from the present tax rates, then "the wealthy" will be hit disproportionately hard by the change being proposed.

1) They benefit far less from the temporary reduction in SS taxes.
2) The tax rate at the highest bracket goes up 4.6% Do the lower bracket rates go up?
3) The tax on estates over $5 million goes from zero % today to 35%. That probably affect more of the wealthy than the poor.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:27 AM   #55
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I just cannot believe that most Americans would allow these tax cuts that benefit the wealthy so disproportionately.
It is hard to understand. But every effort to turn this into a national issue has fallen flat.

Maybe it is because we haven't yet begun to cut back on gov't spending, so there are no current losers (yet). Once we start reducing current budgets that may change.
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:36 AM   #56
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Tax cuts for the wealthy would never fly in Canada. Canadians generally resent wealth(in others) as opposed to American who generally celebrate it. I think in this case though you might want to act more like Canadians?
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:49 AM   #57
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Tax cuts for the wealthy would never fly in Canada. Canadians generally resent wealth(in others) as opposed to American who generally celebrate it. I think in this case though you might want to act more like Canadians?
So, Canada doesn't like rich people?
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Old 12-08-2010, 08:50 AM   #58
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I just cannot believe that most Americans would allow these tax cuts that benefit the wealthy so disproportionately.
Uh, because in this country, THEY are the ones creating jobs??
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:07 AM   #59
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Uh, because in this country, THEY are the ones creating jobs??
I'd love to see some evidence to support that claim.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:22 AM   #60
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It is hard to understand. But every effort to turn this into a national issue has fallen flat.

Maybe it is because we haven't yet begun to cut back on gov't spending, so there are no current losers (yet). Once we start reducing current budgets that may change.
You are probably right. As it is, those trying to "rally the base" just sound like holdover Bolsheviks vowing to "fight" (??) and not "give away so much to the rich." People are ready for a positive message, and this isn't it.

This bill increases spending (extension of unemployment benefits), and reduces taxes on almost everyone. It contains very little pain. It's bizarre that some politicians are saying that this is where they need to draw the line, stop the Republicans, "this is our Gettysburg", etc. There could hardly be a worse tactical place to make a stand. There will be other opportunities, but this ain't it. Who would be most likely to be upset by this bill? Deficit hawks (usually aren't Democrats--a generalization, I know, but I think it's valid).
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