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Old 12-08-2010, 09:31 AM   #61
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I'd love to see some evidence to support that claim.
I won't comment, but here's an interesting article/letters from an "unbiased" source:

FactCheck Mailbag, Week of Sept. 28-Oct. 4 | FactCheck.org
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:32 AM   #62
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So, Canada doesn't like rich people?
Generally not. Or at least think they should pay more to support the kind of things the average guy likes- ie pensions, health care, unemployment insurance, etc.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:41 AM   #63
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Generally not. Or at least think they should pay more to support the kind of things the average guy likes- ie pensions, health care, unemployment insurance, etc.
Keep the masses contented. Give them the modern day version of bread and circuses, and you will keep the unrest to a minimum.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:48 AM   #64
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I have a friend who was involuntarily ER'd by MegaCorp right after the crap hit the fan and he's still drawing unemployment. Has allowed him a two year deferral on tapping his retirement funds and now he's getting a third.

At one point he decided he couldn't keep taking the money so he quit filing. A helpful government employee called him two months later and encouraged him to sign back up as they had plenty of funds. So he did.

To me, this is one of the big mistakes we are making.... guaranteed employment... if you continue to get an unemployment check you are in effect being paid not to work... and now for a third year...

I am sure a lot of the people who are not working would find some kind of job if their benefits stopped... back in the 80s, I had a friend who lost their job... and eventually got a job paying $8 per hour for almost 2 years... then the economy picked up and they worked their way back up... this should be the way it is...
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:50 AM   #65
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I think state governments can do many things to encourage job creation. The federal govít can as well, although they are less effective because of their federal nature. Partnership efforts between businesses and states could have a significant positive effect. Business tax policy improvements would help.

Lower tax rates that favor high earners donít come to mind when choosing policy options to generate jobs or achieve fiscal reform.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:54 AM   #66
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To me, this is one of the big mistakes we are making.... guaranteed employment... if you continue to get an unemployment check you are in effect being paid not to work... and now for a third year...
OK, in spirit I agree -- but with real unemployment around 16-17%, what's the alternative?
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:55 AM   #67
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Coming from a country where taxing the rich is the first answer to any fiscal problem, I am baffled by the willingness of Americans to extend my tax cuts and give me an additional bonus (payroll tax cut) at a time when they face much hardship and I don't. I will donate my tax cuts to the Food Bank and other charities in 2011 and 2012. They need the money more than I do. I also think that there is the potential for a backlash against the rich down the road, so keeping a low profile seems like a good idea.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:00 AM   #68
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Coming from a country where taxing the rich is the first answer to any fiscal problem, I am baffled by the willingness of Americans to extend my tax cuts and give me an additional bonus (payroll tax cut) at a time when they face much hardship and I don't. I will donate my tax cuts to the Food Bank and other charities in 2011 and 2012. They need the money more than I do. I also think that there is the potential for a backlash against the rich down the road, so keeping a low profile seems like a good idea.
The bottom line is that no one likes to be taxed more, but ultimately the fates of "the rich" are only as secure as maintaining civil order and avoiding a "peasant revolt" (many of which have occurred because too much wealth was concentrated in the hands of too few). So if throwing a few bones to the lower and middle classes can prevent the underclass from storming the gates with torches and pitchforks, it's not the worst thing that can happen for the wealthier folks.

I do believe we are living in increasingly scary times, with a shrinking middle class and increasing gaps between the haves and the have-nots, and I hope it can stabilize or reverse before the have-nots feel like the ballot box isn't enough to turn the tide.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:00 AM   #69
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To me, this is one of the big mistakes we are making.... guaranteed employment... if you continue to get an unemployment check you are in effect being paid not to work... and now for a third year...

I am sure a lot of the people who are not working would find some kind of job if their benefits stopped... back in the 80s, I had a friend who lost their job... and eventually got a job paying $8 per hour for almost 2 years... then the economy picked up and they worked their way back up... this should be the way it is...
+1

I have a friend that is still holding out for the exact same kind of job he used to do at the same salary. But in the meantime he is about 18 months into collecting unemployment. He has not expressed interest in a couple of part time possibilities I have floated his way (he didn't turn them down because I wasn't in a position to "offer" him the jobs, he just didn't pursue the possibility of jobs).

When we talk about the what if's of exhausting the full 2 years, he says he will find "something". Loading boxes on a truck if he has to just to pay his mortgage and get by. Single guy with no dependents and no debt other than the mortgage. He is getting by just fine on his $26k/yr.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:03 AM   #70
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I have a friend that is still holding out for the exact same kind of job he used to do at the same salary. But in the meantime he is about 18 months into collecting unemployment. He has not expressed interest in a couple of part time possibilities I have floated his way (he didn't turn them down because I wasn't in a position to "offer" him the jobs, he just didn't pursue the possibility of jobs).
I think this is a good example of why we need to sever the ties between employment and health insurance. Part time jobs almost never provide health insurance, so even if *monetarily* two 20-hour jobs paying $15 per hour appears the same as one full-time job at the same hourly rate, the part time jobs don't offer health insurance so they are often non-starters in terms of consideration. Separate health insurance from employment and there becomes less need to reject otherwise perfectly good part-time gigs.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:17 AM   #71
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The bottom line is that no one likes to be taxed more, but ultimately the fates of "the rich" are only as secure as maintaining civil order and avoiding a "peasant revolt" (many of which have occurred because too much wealth was concentrated in the hands of too few). So if throwing a few bones to the lower and middle classes can prevent the underclass from storming the gates with torches and pitchforks, it's not the worst thing that can happen for the wealthier folks.

I do believe we are living in increasingly scary times, with a shrinking middle class and increasing gaps between the haves and the have-nots, and I hope it can stabilize or reverse before the have-nots feel like the ballot box isn't enough to turn the tide.
I agree. Although your rhetoric is a little colorful for me.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:18 AM   #72
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I agree. Although your rhetoric is a little colorful for me.
I'm not saying it would necessarily lead to full-scale revolt, but there could certainly be an increase in "civil disobedience" and "nonviolent resistance" at a minimum if the "wealth gap" continues to widen and the middle class continues to shrink. I'd sooner not test the theory anyway...
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:42 AM   #73
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What can I say I screwed up, I trusted Alan that it was an employer cut.

You are probably right the 2% will be helpful for folks filling gas tanks as they travel around the area applying for jobs along with 1,000s of others. Oh wait unemployed folks don't pay payroll tax. I have a friend who get laid of in the summer of 2008 right before all the crap hit. Because he was an early casualty he has missed out on all of the extensions including this one.
Doesn't work that way in Illinois. Even if your original 26 wks expired before the extensions were enacted, you can go back and restart. With many of my buddies having been RIF'd from the MegaCorp where we toiled, I see this all the time.

Boomers getting the axe in late career pencil in UI benefits as a normal part of FIRE planning these days. Laid off at 60? Great! Collect UI benefits for 2 yrs and then start SS. There is no significant amount of auditing for evidence of a job search going on. Therefore UI in many cases is simply a gap filler until other retirement benefits start for many senior lay off victims.
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:28 PM   #74
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So, is anyone that is still w*rking, going to ship the 2% SS reduction into 401K, or after tax Roth?
I think I'm going to opt for the 401K, since it's only scheduled for a year. If it's extended much past that, I'll probably shift it into the after tax Roth.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:54 PM   #75
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To me, this is one of the big mistakes we are making.... guaranteed employment... if you continue to get an unemployment check you are in effect being paid not to work... and now for a third year...
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I have a friend who was involuntarily ER'd by MegaCorp right after the crap hit the fan and he's still drawing unemployment. Has allowed him a two year deferral on tapping his retirement funds and now he's getting a third.
.
I don't know how this "third year" business got started. In some states, workers could get up to 99 weeks of unemployment due to prior extensions. Those extensions ran out at the end of November. Without this renewal of the extensions, benefits would have stopped sometime after 26 but before 99 weeks. The renewal just gets back to 99 weeks.

The maximums vary by state, depending on the unemployment rate in that state. Here's a table for NY: New York State Department of Labor - Breakdown of Additional Benefits
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:32 PM   #76
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I'm not saying it would necessarily lead to full-scale revolt, but there could certainly be an increase in "civil disobedience" and "nonviolent resistance" at a minimum if the "wealth gap" continues to widen and the middle class continues to shrink. I'd sooner not test the theory anyway...
Still agree. Previous post more entertaining though.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:35 PM   #77
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I'd love to see some evidence to support that claim.
Tell me who creates jobs then........
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:56 PM   #78
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Tell me who creates jobs then........
It's complicated. The *supply* comes from those who have the businesses that need more labor. But I think the *demand* comes from more people able to buy something they couldn't previously afford or justify, and I don't think that's a common problem in the two highest tax brackets.

But give me a tax cut and I'm not spending it; I'm saving it just I do with all of the cash flow that currently exceeds my expenses. And I'll bet a lot of people who are a lot wealthier than me aren't going to go on a spending binge if their taxes are cut 3% (or not raised 3%). If they already have more income than they need to spend, I don't see them spending only because they can. Wealthy people didn't get that way because they are reckless with money (usually).

And if the tax cuts aren't spent -- not used to increase demand for goods and services -- that doesn't stimulate much or create a heck of a lot of jobs. Give it to the middle class which may have pent-up demand for stuff that rich folks never had to put off buying if they really wanted it, and you are more likely to increase demand.

Still, I do agree that it's not the best way to bring up the wage *earner* by bringing down the wage *payer*. But I don't think tax cuts on the highest earners will increase demand or stimulate their purchasing much. That extra money likely won't make a huge difference in the lifestyle of someone earning $500K. But for someone earning (say) $50K a year, it does.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:13 PM   #79
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OK, in spirit I agree -- but with real unemployment around 16-17%, what's the alternative?


If you are unemployed and NOT getting a check you will be willing to do some things you are not willing when you get a check (even a small check)...

Also, I am not saying we should not have unemployement... I just think the 26 weeks was long enough for someone to make a change if necessary...
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:23 PM   #80
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I don't know how this "third year" business got started. In some states, workers could get up to 99 weeks of unemployment due to prior extensions. Those extensions ran out at the end of November. Without this renewal of the extensions, benefits would have stopped sometime after 26 but before 99 weeks. The renewal just gets back to 99 weeks.

The maximums vary by state, depending on the unemployment rate in that state. Here's a table for NY: New York State Department of Labor - Breakdown of Additional Benefits

The proposal is to increase the current '99ers' an additional 50 something weeks... IIRC, it was 56 weeks to a total of 155... to me, that is 'three years'...

Your link is for the current program, not the proposed one...
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