The Fiscal Cliff, In Three And A Half Graphics

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Midpack said:
So you believe we can't become comparable to Greece if we don't act to bring our fiscal house more in balance at some point? The ability to print your own currency only works to a point. There are about 40 examples where that's failed among the many listed here.

I looked at the chart. I sure hope we don't ever match Hungry's 1945 rate. Prices doubling every 15 hours wouldn't be very kind to a pensioner like me with an annual 2% cola!
 
StuartR said:
You are exactly right, the Fed Reserve has picked up the slack because China and the rest of the world have become risk adverse to the US government spending, debt and the US Dollar. The Fed Reserve is no longer the buyer of last resort, they are the primary buyer, with inflation producing digits conjured out of thin air.

This turns out not to be the case.

The Federal Reserve did buy lots of Treasuries as part of the quantative easing programs in 2008-early 2009 and in he first half of 2011, but is not currently the primary buyer. That would be all the Mom and Pop buyers.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47738555/Guess_Who_s_Buying_All_the_Bonds_It_s_Not_the_Fed

Oh, and Japan is about to pass China in foreign holdings of US Treasuries...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/09/21/business/Who-Is-Owed-by-the-United-States.html

(apologies for injecting facts into this thread...)
 
Fiscal cliff my tushy! Next year I turn 70 1/2 - and no matter what Congress does my old buddy old pals are gonna 'pssst RMD' .

I will be forced do you hear me forced to pay more taxes and of course spend more cause I hear you can't take it with you.

heh heh heh - I have never heard any Congressman stand up and say let's help poor ole Unclemick out - taxwise. :rolleyes:
 
This turns out not to be the case.

The Federal Reserve did buy lots of Treasuries as part of the quantative easing programs in 2008-early 2009 and in he first half of 2011, but is not currently the primary buyer. That would be all the Mom and Pop buyers.

Guess Who's Buying All the Bonds? (It's Not the Fed) - US Business News - CNBC

Oh, and Japan is about to pass China in foreign holdings of US Treasuries...

Who Is Owed by the United States - Graphic - NYTimes.com

(apologies for injecting facts into this thread...)

Thanks, M for the correction - or at least partial correction that the Fed was not the leading buyer at least in the first quarter of this year. But that does not change the narrative that they have been the primary. But more importantly, that they will be the primary buyer again because China will cease to roll over into new treasuries. Here's why.

The People's Bank of China owns almost $1.2 trillion in U. S. Treasury debt. It is the largest holder. Close behind is Japan. You can see which nation owns how much of U.S. Treasury debt in the Treasury Department's monthly TIC report.

Take a look at the report. China held a maximum of a little over $1.3 trillion in July 2011. Then it began to reduce its holdings by about $140 billion by January. The official policy of the bank is for greater diversification. This is a code phrase for "selling Treasury debt."

We know this: by mid-2011, China had gotten rid of almost all of its T-bills, meaning 90-day IOUs. It was holding U. S. bonds. So, when it ceases to buy bonds that come to maturity, its holdings fall. It does not have to sell T-bonds. It simply lets them mature. The U.S. Treasury must then credit China's account with this money. The central bank takes the money and runs.

The quiet way to get out of the dollar is to do nothing. Just take the dollars from the Treasury and invest them elsewhere in U.S. markets, or sell them for other currencies.

It is not clear that China has begun a bank run on the Treasury. But word is beginning to get out. If the bank's present policy continues – a refusal to roll over maturing debt – the Treasury Department will have to find new buyers.

There will come a day when the refusal of creditors to roll over the debt will increase. Then, without warning, the rollovers will cease. The creditors will decide to keep their dollars and forgo the rollover. On that day, the Treasury will have to go to the FED and demand that the FED buy its debt.

The first indications of a bank run by China have begun. There is no panic yet. The system is bumping along. But if China does not reverse itself soon, it will become clear that the U.S. Treasury is over-leveraged. It has more debt than its income can sustain.

So now when you see Japan surpass China as largest foreign debt holder, you'll know it no cause for celebration.
 
FinanceDude said:
Are you working at the Fed? :LOL:

Nah. Of course if Ben were to slide a few notes my way, I would not object...

Or maybe a pound of bacon...
 
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Part of the problem is that most folks can't afford to be "fully on board" with this scenario. To stake the whole portfolio on this potential scenario would be very risky.
But, I think the scenario Plosser outlines is a significant possibility. I've done a little by significantly reducing my bonds and bond maturities (on the assumption that higher inflation will drive interest rates higher as well). I think stocks, overall, will do relatively well in keeping pace with moderately higher inflation. Since Plosser's view doesn't seem to be widely held, I'd think that hedging against it should be fairly cheap, but that's about where I run out of ideas. I guess I could buy gold/gold options, but that introduces another point of of uncertainty (e.g. will higher inflation result in significantly increased demand for gold this time?). It'd be more straightforward just to "bet" on the inflation index.
So, what's the cheapest way to buy some insurance against a 2-5% increase in the CPI?

The first step is to “rethink your stock portfolio.” Given a falling dollar, investors can trade in their U.S. shares for investments in foreign companies. U.S. stocks are overvalued, while many foreign stocks are not. Plus, investors will get the tailwind benefit of rising currency values with stocks denominated in foreign currencies.

Investing directly in foreign currencies is also an option. Some believe the currency market provides the most effective way to position oneself to protect and profit from the implications of such monetary policies.

Other, like legendary investor Jim Rogers, believe the big fortunes of the coming decade or two may well be made in agriculture.

Begin investing in gold. The price of the yellow metal may go to $5,000 per ounce. Why? Private citizens are re-instituting a gold standard on their own; troubled currencies will tie to gold rather than dollars; central banks have become the biggest buyers of gold, instead of sellers; mining companies are buying back short positions; short covering will cause gold to rise; Wall Street will rediscover gold.

The last step is to stay liquid and turn adjustable-rate loans into fixed-rate ones while interest rate are still artificially suppressed.

There are plenty of plays. But if you're not uncomfortable with the current economic climate and think things are humming along in business as usual mode, and not the reality that we are in uncharted economic seas, then just hang on for the ride.
 
The first step is to “rethink your stock portfolio.” Given a falling dollar, investors can trade in their U.S. shares for investments in foreign companies. U.S. stocks are overvalued, while many foreign stocks are not. Plus, investors will get the tailwind benefit of rising currency values with stocks denominated in foreign currencies.

Investing directly in foreign currencies is also an option. Some believe the currency market provides the most effective way to position oneself to protect and profit from the implications of such monetary policies.

Other, like legendary investor Jim Rogers, believe the big fortunes of the coming decade or two may well be made in agriculture.

Begin investing in gold. The price of the yellow metal may go to $5,000 per ounce. Why? Private citizens are re-instituting a gold standard on their own; troubled currencies will tie to gold rather than dollars; central banks have become the biggest buyers of gold, instead of sellers; mining companies are buying back short positions; short covering will cause gold to rise; Wall Street will rediscover gold.

The last step is to stay liquid and turn adjustable-rate loans into fixed-rate ones while interest rate are still artificially suppressed.

There are plenty of plays. But if you're not uncomfortable with the current economic climate and think things are humming along in business as usual mode, and not the reality that we are in uncharted economic seas, then just hang on for the ride.
Make sure to leave room for some ammo and canned provisions. Tin foil for the select few.
 
Think about whether the people who repeatedly cite Greece as a warning have a certain type of fiscal agenda or not.

Are they only pointing out a cautionary tale?

Are the comparisons valid? Actually, I just heard by some measures, the UK may be worse in some fiscal metrics than Greece, despite being on austerity for over a year now.
 
Thanks, M for the correction - or at least partial correction that the Fed was not the leading buyer at least in the first quarter of this year. But that does not change the narrative that they have been the primary. But more importantly, that they will be the primary buyer again because China will cease to roll over into new treasuries. Here's why.

The People's Bank of China owns almost $1.2 trillion in U. S. Treasury debt. It is the largest holder. Close behind is Japan. You can see which nation owns how much of U.S. Treasury debt in the Treasury Department's monthly TIC report.

Take a look at the report. China held a maximum of a little over $1.3 trillion in July 2011. Then it began to reduce its holdings by about $140 billion by January. The official policy of the bank is for greater diversification. This is a code phrase for "selling Treasury debt."

We know this: by mid-2011, China had gotten rid of almost all of its T-bills, meaning 90-day IOUs. It was holding U. S. bonds. So, when it ceases to buy bonds that come to maturity, its holdings fall. It does not have to sell T-bonds. It simply lets them mature. The U.S. Treasury must then credit China's account with this money. The central bank takes the money and runs.

The quiet way to get out of the dollar is to do nothing. Just take the dollars from the Treasury and invest them elsewhere in U.S. markets, or sell them for other currencies.

It is not clear that China has begun a bank run on the Treasury. But word is beginning to get out. If the bank's present policy continues – a refusal to roll over maturing debt – the Treasury Department will have to find new buyers.

There will come a day when the refusal of creditors to roll over the debt will increase. Then, without warning, the rollovers will cease. The creditors will decide to keep their dollars and forgo the rollover. On that day, the Treasury will have to go to the FED and demand that the FED buy its debt.

The first indications of a bank run by China have begun. There is no panic yet. The system is bumping along. But if China does not reverse itself soon, it will become clear that the U.S. Treasury is over-leveraged. It has more debt than its income can sustain.

So now when you see Japan surpass China as largest foreign debt holder, you'll know it no cause for celebration.

Thanks for posting your reply. When M's post, I wanted to reply but all I had was my phone which would have been very painful.

As you mentioned, CNBC's article is of a specific timeframe (first quarter), and as the article even states:
The Fed, meanwhile, actually slightly decreased its net holdings, not a surprise since its latest quantitative easing endeavor begun in September — nicknamed Operation Twist — was designed to be balance sheet-neutral. The central bank is selling short-dated notes and buying an equal number of longer-duration issues in an effort to drive down borrowing rates and boost risk.

So,
1) Twist was designed to be neutral, and came after the huge central bank purchases of Treasury debt (in 2011).
2) Twist was designed to push down rates on the long end of the curve by buying longer dated maturities while selling shorter dated maturities. This chart: Market Matrix US Sell 2 Year & Buy 10 Year Bond Yield Spread Analysis - USYC2Y10 - Bloomberg shows a one year history of the 10 year rate minus the 2 year rate. While the Fed is only one player (but a big one), you can see that Twist (or the knowledge of it) had an effect on the spread. On this older graph: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO-vZpS.../wCMffjQSktY/s1600/Treasury+spread+TIPS10.png you can see where the spread went down dramatically in late 2008 as inflation expectations (which is what the spread is an indicator of) collapsed...which makes perfect sense as credit defaults are deflationary. Then, during QE (before twist), the spread and inflation expectations climbed back.


Think about whether the people who repeatedly cite Greece as a warning have a certain type of fiscal agenda or not.

Are they only pointing out a cautionary tale?

Are the comparisons valid? Actually, I just heard by some measures, the UK may be worse in some fiscal metrics than Greece, despite being on austerity for over a year now.

So, since you "just heard", what measures are those?

Greece is a "cautionary tale" because it shows what happens when a countries population thinks it can continue to live beyond its means indefinitely and without serious repercussions. In the old, old days when their was a gold standard, austerity was automatically enforced in the sense that a currency was backed by gold. So, the owed party could demand payment in gold. Greece's currency can't devalue (making their exports more competitive). One of the major issues in Europe (as compared to the USA) is that there is much less mobility of labor. In the USA, if one part of the country is sucking wind, but another is doing good, labor will migrate. This is one factor allowing us to have a single currency.

Regarding stocks, they can do OK in a hyper-inflationary environment, and did so in the Weimar Republic hyper-inflation (expressed in real terms, e.g. converted into US $). (OK means mostly held their own.)

Bad stuff:
Contracts in fixed prices (e.g. Rentals, my PENSION)
Longer dated notes/bonds that aren't inflation adjusted
Stock's with little ability to raise prices

Good stuff:
Food. Land, especially if it can be used for food or fuel. Maybe precious metals (but you can't eat them). Inflation hedged debt instruments (assuming the hedge is fairly accurate plus the risk of non-payment). Guns? Ammo? Beer. :)
Stock with real backing assets and ability to raise prices.
Currencies from those few countries not racing to the bottom in terms of monetary policy, especially in asset rich countries.

I dunno, looking for ideas.

I just added a new section to my net worth/holdings spreadsheet, where I am trying to [-]guess[/-] estimate the % of inflation hedge from the asset. For example, long term non-inflation adjusted bonds would be 0%. Gold 100%? Inflation adjusted US Treasuries 90%? And so on. With this, I can [-]guess[/-] estimate my overall portfolio inflation hedge.
 
A low interest mortgage is nice during high inflation.
 
Animorph said:
A low interest mortgage is nice during high inflation.

Yep, forgot to add that one. Borrow as much as you can, long term. I've had my house paid off since just around FIRE time. I've found myself lately looking at farm and timber property which u would try to finance at fixed rates.
 
If the Mayans got the calender thingy right, the fiscal cliff should be a non issue.
 
My husband I still work, albeit part-time, however, we pay the whole boat of taxes (self-employed, we pay the full amount). It pains me to write the checks each quarter. Then with the Fed QE 1,2,3 he!!! infinity, any cash I have anywhere loses money due to the crappy interest rates and inflation (yes, inflation - look at gas and the price of food - and house prices are going up here as well as other energy prices - oh, and after looking at my electric bill, I realized it's merely a vehicle for my local governments (city, county and state) to assess all kinds of fees - ahh, yes, and those go up constantly). I already pay close to 50% of all income in taxes - with the upcoming 'cliff', it may hit 60-70% - I might as well move to France!!!! or back to Europe...at least in Germany the roads were good, the public infrastructure worked and they weren't constantly asking to float public bonds for stuff they should be doing with the taxes in the first place.

Ohh - and I don't live in CA anymore.....so, say what you will, I am paying a lot already and don't appreciate being asked to pay more - I just got back from Greece - we don't want to be like that, so serious cutting of the federal, state, county and city budgets are in order.....I have to cut mine every time they come with their hand out - they should start cutting theirs.

I am also a Reservist and am almost in a schadenfreude way hoping sequestration goes through - people get used to living off the fat of the land....I went through many years in the Reserves (Clinton anyone?) where I got my 50 points a year and that was it.....not due to not wanting anymore points, due to 'that's all there is, so suck it up and be happy with it.' A bit more prioritization might not hurt. Oh, and cut the social programs as well while you are at it - same amount. And stop calling them non-discretionary....if they truly are a right, then get the votes to make it a change to the US Constitution - otherwise, take up with your state, county, city....

It just makes me very angry that people who are responsible with their money are being severely punished right now.......in more ways than one.

Rant off.....
 
It's worth noting that there are Fed governors on both sides of the issue, so grain of salt, and all that...
 
Right! Greece has better weather, better food and knows how to enjoy both regardless of the economy and/or politics.

"fiscal cliff, schmishcal cliff! pass the ouzo!"

Friends just got back from a month in Greece. Verdict: nobody over there worries too much about the whole thing...party on the beach!
Right! That is why we see them rioting and throwing fire bombs at the riot police. Those playful folks!

Then there is Melina Mercouri- does anyone think a woman's eyes could ever speak more eloquently than hers?

Melina Mercouri - Ta Paidia Tou Piraia (Never On Sunday) - YouTube

Ha
 
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If the Mayans got the calender thingy right, the fiscal cliff should be a non issue.

One down and one to go.

Looks like no end of the world thingy...but we are peeking over that cliff at the moment :(
 
Right! Greece has better weather, better food and knows how to enjoy both regardless of the economy and/or politics.

"fiscal cliff, schmishcal cliff! pass the ouzo!"

Friends just got back from a month in Greece. Verdict: nobody over there worries too much about the whole thing...party on the beach!
Well, I dunno about the Greeks living down near the Mediterranean sea, but the ones living up in the mountains are freezing their buns off because they have no heating oil. Mayors ordered schools closed because of fear the schoolchildren would freeze in their classrooms. Misery abound.

See: Greeks Can’t Find Euros to Buy Heating Oil This Winter.
 
+1, now if we could only disolve congress and start over with more objective reps.
That's know as the Microsoft fix. You know, Ctrl+Alt+Del, reboot, hope for the best.
 
I like to get my morning news watching CBS This Morning (Mon - Sat). Bob Schieffer was guest asked today, and put it best. He said something like "I've said it before, I can't believe that both sides are so stupid to not have an agreement and put the nation in a recession." Well said.
 
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