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Old 08-15-2009, 11:28 AM   #61
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Martha,
I think you misunderstand those of us that dislike 1000 page plans. The problem with 1000 page plans are the political pay-off that is found in the footnote of page 588 or 396. Maybe just one line, that gives a big donor that tax break the rest of us don't get. When the bills become so big that the majority of the folks voting on them can not read them or understand them, that, IMHO is bad government.
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:14 PM   #62
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I see your point, it is a question of trust. But the problem is that it may very well take a 1000 pages.
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:04 PM   #63
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You got it, Trust, and based on the eight years of Republican rule, and the less than one year of Democratic rule, I have no more trust for the Congress of the United States. While there may be some good people up there, I firmly believe they have the own self interest in mind and not the good of the people of this country.
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:25 PM   #64
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Martha, I agree with much of what you say regarding the issues (but not all of it). However, I do want to express to you that this line you keep trotting out is actually a bit offensive:

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Originally Posted by Martha View Post
But given people don't seem to be expressing much empathy for those without, eventually may be further out than I hoped.
Saying it should be set up as "pay as you go" , or that Congress should read and understand what they are signing is not about not showing empathy. Just the opposite. It is showing empathy, because I want a system which is sustainable. One that falls apart will not help those in the future. I am trying to show concern for both present and future citizens.

I think the vast majority here have expressed that they want reforms. It is the implementation of those reforms that they are concerned about. They want it done right. You seem to be painting anyone against these current proposals as a bit heartless, and I think that is just a bit too convenient, and unfair.

Sorry if that was expressed too bluntly, but I've ignored those comments enough times that the pressure built a little. So please consider how those words sound to some of us.

OK, I got that out of my system carry on.


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Old 08-15-2009, 02:34 PM   #65
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However, I do want to express to you that this line you keep trotting out is actually a bit offensive:
Take a glance in the mirror.

If those of us who bothered to read your repeated diatribes expressed offense each time you repeated the same point we'd all be tearing our hair out by now.

Quote:
Sorry if that was expressed too bluntly, but I've ignored those comments enough times that the pressure built a little. So please consider how those words sound to some of us.
Yep, some quality mirror time is definitely in order.
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Old 08-15-2009, 06:48 PM   #66
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REWahoo,

With all due respect (and I do very much respect you), I have to disagree with you here.

IMO, ERD50 is one of the major contributors in terms of content to this forum. I don't always agree with him, but I have found him to be respectful of others' opinions. I would not classify his posts as "diatribes", but rather as non-emotional and based upon intellectual honesty. Count me as someone who is interested in hearing what he has to say about most any topic.

I'm not taking sides against Martha here (she is quite capable of defending herself) - just that I think you have been overly harsh on ERD50.
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Old 08-15-2009, 07:58 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Martha, I agree with much of what you say regarding the issues (but not all of it). However, I do want to express to you that this line you keep trotting out is actually a bit offensive:



Saying it should be set up as "pay as you go" , or that Congress should read and understand what they are signing is not about not showing empathy. Just the opposite. It is showing empathy, because I want a system which is sustainable. One that falls apart will not help those in the future. I am trying to show concern for both present and future citizens.

I think the vast majority here have expressed that they want reforms. It is the implementation of those reforms that they are concerned about. They want it done right. You seem to be painting anyone against these current proposals as a bit heartless, and I think that is just a bit too convenient, and unfair.

Sorry if that was expressed too bluntly, but I've ignored those comments enough times that the pressure built a little. So please consider how those words sound to some of us.

OK, I got that out of my system carry on.


-ERD50
We all get testy, me included. I am tired of this debate on the forum and we all repeat ourselves too often. I get especially testing when posters bring up unsupported claims, like those made in the past day or two about Medicaid. Frankly, I think that you and I should bow out of the discussion here unless we have specific facts to offer.


You are taking my quote about empathy entirely out of its context.I have been clear on saying that I have problems with the current proposals. I would do reform differently. I never said that you cannot criticize current proposals and still be empathetic. And I wasn't talking at all about pay as you go as I have a rather complicated view of the concept. (For example, states in a bad economy are forced to cut medicaid but that is when it is the most needed, sometimes the feds have to step in during recessions and spend more than what is coming in.) I have talked a fair amount about the cost issue, the likely need to raise taxes, the definite need to manage costs, and I am one of the few here who talks about specific suggestions on cost containment and problems in quantifying cost savings. I don't just whine about the need for reform nor do I just whine about how much reform will cost.

I stand by what I said in the post you snipped the quote out of but I will try to be clearer: I was riffing off of SamClem's comment that the crisis primarily is a crisis of the disadvantaged which could fester for decades. It already has festered far too long. If as a country we really value health care for all we would find a way to do it. If we don't it does not reflect well on our country. That is what I think. Others may differ in what they think.
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:49 PM   #68
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IMO, ERD50 is one of the major contributors in terms of content to this forum. I don't always agree with him, but I have found him to be respectful of others' opinions. I would not classify his posts as "diatribes", but rather as non-emotional and based upon intellectual honesty. Count me as someone who is interested in hearing what he has to say about most any topic.
I'm not taking sides against Martha here (she is quite capable of defending herself) - just that I think you have been overly harsh on ERD50.
I think that ERD50 is exhibiting classic noodge behavior in the most Yiddish sense of the word.
Nudge Definition | Definition of Nudge at Dictionary.com

Whether that's involuntary or deliberate is difficult to discern.

But E-R.org members have already voted with the "Ignore Poster" feature. I'm in favor of releasing the "Top Ten" list in that category.
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Old 08-15-2009, 09:53 PM   #69
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Take a glance in the mirror.

If those of us who bothered to read your repeated diatribes expressed offense each time you repeated the same point we'd all be tearing our hair out by now.
I fully understand that I am often "pushing" the issue in a lot of cases with my posts. It is because I am sometimes trying to dig a little deeper and get a real answer. Some of the recent topics that I pushed on have been discussed every few months, and never go anywhere. Despite the fact that some people may have gotten tired of it, I am actually satisfied that I learned a little more than I did previously. People can skip those posts, or use the ignore function if that is their thing. I am who I am.

What I was commenting on in this case, was not the repetition, but the sum of those which I perceived as a "dishonest debate", putting supporters and non-supporters into a good guy / bad guy role.

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I would not classify his posts as "diatribes", but rather as non-emotional and based upon intellectual honesty.
Thanks FIRE'd@51 - that is my intention. I'm glad that someone can see that for what it is meant to be and appreciate it (or not for that matter).

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You are taking my quote about empathy entirely out of its context.
Ok, but... oh well, we are probably all too tired of this to go further to understand the context. Sorry if I misunderstood. My intent does stand, relative to my perceived context (as noted above).

Back to Health care, or Franken, or any other topic that will probably lead to health care anyway

Regards - ERD50
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Old 09-07-2009, 06:05 PM   #70
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The Health Insurers Have Already Won - BusinessWeek


IMHO, all that we're going to get out of this is that the insurance companies are going to have 47 million additional customers - whether the customers like it or not! In return, they'll do away with the pre-existing-condition stuff.

Our premiums will continue to go up in double-digit percentage increments, the nation's deficit will continue to rise, and the Health Insurance companies will be the next industry with $100M bonuses.

I was so hopeful about this when Obama was elected. Now, it just makes me sick!
Exactly! The greedy insurers have won and the CEOs will continue to fly around the country in their private jets off the backs of their new customers! Premiums will continue to rise and benefits will continue to be cut. Healthcare is broken and politicians are all being paid off by ins companies, who are spending upwards of a million dollars a day to fight the reform.
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:41 PM   #71
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Exactly! The greedy insurers have won and the CEOs will continue to fly around the country in their private jets off the backs of their new customers! Premiums will continue to rise and benefits will continue to be cut. Healthcare is broken and politicians are all being paid off by ins companies, who are spending upwards of a million dollars a day to fight the reform.
You don't expect them to spend that money on policy holders, now do ya?

Profits are a right; healthcare is not...
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:41 AM   #72
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I think what the government needs to do to pay for health care reform is tax wealth in addition to income, because those evil rich people didn't earn their money they stole it from the hard working poor people of this country. Oh yeah, if you have enough money to retire early, that means you will have your wealth taxed enough to make you go back to work, until you are old enough to retire. Remember profits aren't a right the welfare of poor people is.

The point is there is always someone poorer then you, who can claim that you need to help them. Profits have always driven this country. Profits are what have allowed many/most on this board to retire early. If profits are evil then they should be given back to provide for the welfare of the general population, not horded so one or two people can retire early.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:54 AM   #73
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The point is there is always someone poorer then you, who can claim that you need to help them. Profits have always driven this country. Profits are what have allowed many/most on this board to retire early. If profits are evil then they should be given back to provide for the welfare of the general population, not horded so one or two people can retire early.
So what's up with all of this socialized police and fire department stuff. I am pretty well covered in my gated community. Why should I subsidize your police protection? Buy your own or do without. And don't get me started on your inefficient public schools. I pay for my open market private schools. Why the heck do I have to pay taxes for your kids.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:54 AM   #74
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So what's up with all of this socialized police and fire department stuff. I am pretty well covered in my gated community. Why should I subsidize your police protection? Buy your own or do without. And don't get me started on your inefficient public schools. I pay for my open market private schools. Why the heck do I have to pay taxes for your kids.
The police and fire departments are the methods a government uses to keep the fabric of society intact, health care is not. If you look at New Orleans during the flood after Katrina you will see what happens when fire and police departments are unable to respond to emergencies. Yes the fire department assists in keeping the criminals at bay. If you believe your private security is up to the challenge of defending your walled city then have it, secede from the city/state/nation and see how long you survive. It'll will be a short lived situation (even if they allow you to withdrawal from the union), probably hours at best, before the criminals overrun your shang-ra-la. If you wish to have the government control it's populace by using health care go to a country that has that system. Fear of the government having too much control is the reason for the Bill of Rights, several of which directly limit the methods the policing arm of the government can use.

The same reason I have to pay for every other kids' education. Education is required for a society to be successful, heath care is not. Oh yeah unless your kid is going to the same school as mine you're not paying to educate my kid. This country built itself into the most successful country in the world without national health care, but now we are being told it is impossible to do it. It is not impossible, though it is unlikely, when the populace has come to believe they deserve the good life before they actually have the ability to pay for it. The lessons our parents/grandparents/great grandparents learned during the Great Depression have been lost and we are doomed to repeat thier mistakes.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:52 AM   #75
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Moving to the politics forum, as this thread has taken a decidedly political turn. Please remember that forum rules regarding civility are still in effect. Thanks!
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:42 PM   #76
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The police and fire departments are the methods a government uses to keep the fabric of society intact, health care is not.

The same reason I have to pay for every other kids' education. Education is required for a society to be successful, heath care is not. .
I agree with the first sentiment on both cases. The second sentiment is your opinion and is probably not shared by the majority of Americans and is certainly not shared by most other first world countries. Many of us believe health care is just as central a public concern as education. And there are some who object to both public health care and public education. A few of them probably believe police and fire services shouldn't be public either.

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Moving to the politics forum, as this thread has taken a decidedly political turn. Please remember that forum rules regarding civility are still in effect. Thanks!
Yes, I apologize. Once again I was was being tongue in cheek and recognize that can border on flaming. I hope readers realized I didn't seriously think public police, fire, and education should be abandoned. I even added an emoticon to help make that point. As to politics, I don't think this discussion is political. It deals with fundamental individual beliefs about what a society should do for its citizens. If anything that is more spiritual than political.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:05 PM   #77
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:13 PM   #78
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As to politics, I don't think this discussion is political. It deals with fundamental individual beliefs about what a society should do for its citizens. If anything that is more spiritual than political.
I see this as the fundamental purpose of politics. The formation of groups to garner greater power to try to bring about the social and economic policies favored by one's group.

I also see no problem with politics, and am somewhat bemused by the horror of political discussions at this site. As soon as God created Eve, politics began. The only group with no politics is a "group “of one.

Ha
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:17 PM   #79
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I think what the government needs to do to pay for health care reform is tax wealth in addition to income, because those evil rich people didn't earn their money they stole it from the hard working poor people of this country. Oh yeah, if you have enough money to retire early, that means you will have your wealth taxed enough to make you go back to work, until you are old enough to retire. Remember profits aren't a right the welfare of poor people is.

The point is there is always someone poorer then you, who can claim that you need to help them. Profits have always driven this country. Profits are what have allowed many/most on this board to retire early. If profits are evil then they should be given back to provide for the welfare of the general population, not horded so one or two people can retire early.
If the gumment decides to create a single-payer system, I could live with it*, but I don't think additional taxpayer money should fund anything but the most needy of cases. The system should be set-up based on premiums that will cover the costs...

* Like I have a choice...
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:15 PM   #80
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It's all my fault, for being sarcastic...
This is why we cant have nice things here
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