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Old 12-04-2011, 04:29 PM   #61
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Yes, it bears watching, but so far property crimes don't appear to be increasing according the FBI.
Yikes, this is kind of a cold-blooded analysis.

Ha
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Old 12-04-2011, 05:44 PM   #62
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Was the story I heard actually factual about the guy who went into his bank with a gun and robbed them for a dollar? Reason being, he was sick and needed medical care. Can't help think it's not true, as if he wanted to make sure he went to prison for a while, he would have asked for more than a dollar, or does the fact that he used a gun negate the amount?

Or that he only asked for a dollar, to insure that they won't keep him too long?
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:01 PM   #63
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Midpack. You make good precise points. It is unfortunate, but it seems we are caught up in a system, both gov. and individuals, where we will not look at other avenues until "everyone is bleeding profusely". It is a shame we have to go that route. The idea of forethought seems to be a total stranger to us.

I think I know the causes and effect of our dysfunctional government, and know that without some radical procedural changes enacted there, our only strength without these changes lies with us as voters but only if we are united in cause, educated on the subject matter and rational in terms of how it's paid for.
(Phew, that sounds real attainable.)

But, I go back to my original statements. Many people are uninformed because they get all their "so called information" on TV. They are told what they should think, and how "it really is" , and they question no further.

I think those that opposed Obama's plan fell into three very different categories.

1. The totally uninformed (example a family member of mine I tried to discuss the situation with on many occasions, would fall into this group.)

2. Those who have always had good health care provided to them from their employer, and have not yet been "touched" by the travesties lurking behind the door.

3. Those that do take an interest, who actually knew what was in the bill and saw the eventual pitfalls in it's current form and would like something different.
Actually, I correct myself, #3 could apply to those in favor of health care reform as well.

The only area or issue I can see some universal
agreement about is the Wall Street (financial regulation) issue, and that is very diverse in opinions of how we handled the crises. But at least we all agree that the current system is not a good one, and needs to have some serious changes made. That's because we have all been personally touched by the issue, and in some cases devastated.

A not so funny story, but true.
As silly as it sounds, my sister and brother in law and I no longer speak. (not my choice) OVER POLITICS. Can it be true?

While the health care debate was raging, we got together one night and they said they wanted to talk Politics (Uh Oh), because they wanted to see if they could understand our (my son and I) thought process. Much to my protesting that I thought it better that we don't go there and avoid that subject, they insisted. They assured us that all would remain calm and civil and that surely we could talk and share as adults.

Fool that I was, I caved. I remember when it came to the issue of health care and I asked them a directed questions about the bill, they really didn't know anything about it. They were just against it, and all I heard were TV sound bites coming from their mouths.

After being cut off half sentence in any factual matter I tried to present, I asked her if she would just read a couple of books on the subject that I would give her, and she answered me with "I don't need to read any books to know".

I offered to read any of her right wing (for lack of better words) books in exchange, and then we could come back to the table and talk again. Needless to say, it did not end well, and here I sit over a year later, with a much loved missing sister in my life. How stupid.

My point in telling you this story is how discouraged and frustrated I feel to see a nation so divided among itself on such an important issue, and how self destructive this can be for us when some people refuse to even look at new possibilities. I don't have any procedural changes to fix that one, except eliminate all "opinion news" from the media and go back to the old way of reporting news. But alas, that would be too boring for our over stimulated cyber media minds now, and they sure would lose ratings - real fast.

I accept diversity of opinion. It the Democratic way. I just wish there was a way of making sure that these opinions were based on actual fact and knowledge and willingness to accept something new.

There will always be diversity, but perhaps a little less sometimes if we educated ourselves a little better and considered decisions we make in terms of how it relates to the whole of our society, as opposed to a select group and have some real fact backing up our decisions.
Good post, Modhatter. I can relate to the family argument stuff with similar stories. Several years ago, my brother and I had to have a cease-fire over our arguments about politics which had been going on for a few years. I see him only once a year for Thanksgiving so our cease-fire has held up well except in my 2009 visit when we had it out over the then-proposed health insurance bill. As in your situation, he did not want it to become political but I still insisted on not discussing it. But I got suckered into the discussion and the late-night argument it woke up a few people sleeping in his house.

But what has gone on in the last year or so is another cease-fire I have to start - with my dad (whom I see and speak with more often than my brother). I think my brother has turned him into a right-wing nutjob by giving him a subscription to the Wall Street Journal and geting him hooked on Fox News. When I made a somewhat nuanced comment about the Occupy Wall Street people which did not condemn them the way my dad had condemned them, he got really pissed at me and said something to me he had never said before: "Shut up because I don't want to think less of you!" That hurt but I'll get over it.

Speaking of Fox News and my dad, I would modify slightly your first category to read, "The totally uninformed or misinformed (example a family member of mine I tried to discuss the situation with on many occasions, would fall into this group.)" It is the Fox News viewers who believe the "Death panels" nonsense and constantly describe the ACA as a "Government takeover of healthcare." Uninformed people are blank slates but misinformed people have to also unlearn the misinformation they have learned before they can learn the correct infomation.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:33 AM   #64
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Speaking of Fox News and my dad, I would modify slightly your first category to read, "The totally uninformed or misinformed (example a family member of mine I tried to discuss the situation with on many occasions, would fall into this group.)" It is the Fox News viewers who believe the "Death panels" nonsense and constantly describe the ACA as a "Government takeover of healthcare." Uninformed people are blank slates but misinformed people have to also unlearn the misinformation they have learned before they can learn the correct information.

Great point. You are absolutely correct. The word should have been misinformed. By the way, if you are interested those two books I would have to had to agree to read in exchange for my two books on health care, was one by Ann Coulter, and the other by Bill O'Reilly. Talk about biting the bullet. I just would have refrained from eating the night before. But I was willing to do it, if she read mine. In the end she said it would be a waste of time and she was probably right.

Sorry to hear that about your Dad. That was a real low blow. This kind of stuff should never tear families apart. I know it may be very difficult to comprehend the other persons side sometimes, but not worth loosing a close relationship over.

Don't start me on Faux News. I'll be banned from this forum forever. Talk about heated discussions and making enemies. As I guess politics is a passion with me, especially on the subject of health care, I have to do a lot of editing and deleting of my own posts after I write them. Easy to get carried away and snarly sometimes.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:11 AM   #65
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We appreciate your efforts to get this thread back on topic and away from discussion that will lead to Mr. Porky's appearance.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:16 AM   #66
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Was the story I heard actually factual about the guy who went into his bank with a gun and robbed them for a dollar? Reason being, he was sick and needed medical care. Can't help think it's not true, as if he wanted to make sure he went to prison for a while, he would have asked for more than a dollar, or does the fact that he used a gun negate the amount?

Or that he only asked for a dollar, to insure that they won't keep him too long?
Maybe this is a life-imitates-art scenario. I recall an episode of "L.A. Law" back in the early 1990s when a prisoner was granted parole or early release over his objection because he needed treatment for AIDS (or some other disease) and the only place he could get it was in prison.

After a court hearing, his appeal was denied so in the hallway outside the courtroom he got his hands on a gun (not sure if it was his own he smuggled in or he grabbed one from a court officer or cop) and started shooting people including one the show's main characters (an ADA). I think he shouted out as he was being taken away, "Now you have to treat me!"
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:08 AM   #67
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2. Those who have always had good health care provided to them from their employer, and have not yet been "touched" by the travesties lurking behind the door.
At first glance, I thought "what do transvestites have to do with this?"...
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:38 AM   #68
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Very funny HFWR. Nothing like a good laugh to start my day.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:40 PM   #69
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