Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-01-2009, 06:13 PM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNNIE36 View Post
That quote is a bunch of crap and don't believe it for a minute. For the last four years of my career at the General Motors Tech Center in Detroit, I was in monthly meetings with various Vehicle Chief Engineers and Division Sales Chiefs and all emphasis was always on providing a better vehicle than the competition. Guess the only guy that had it made was Dave McClellan, Vehicle Chief Engineer for Corvette. He had a blank check book and all the "competition" was trying to copy him. No one ever thought it was a given that the public would buy what was produced. I'll give you this, quality on fit and finish was not a top priority until the early 1980's. That's when quality came to the forefront and the Japenese started to made us look bad. I would say that it took us fifteen years to catch up to them and I can't blame the public for switching to the foreign manufacturers. Now we are in the position of having to win back those buyers that left us and that is tough. We are there but it's really hard to convince the American public how good the American cars are. Someone buys a Toyota Camry and it gives them top notch service. Why change to something else. It's a tough road back. Only time will fix it. Maybe the American car will go the way of American made shoes. I don't think any shoes are produced here anymore. Maybe SAS.
D-3 are not dumb, though certain executives may have been very short-sighted. But they know the nut of non-car costs that they have to cover on every vehicle, and they know that the UAW and their political protectors will not let that change.

Hard to bury several $K in a $17,000 car. So they did the only thing they could do, which IMO was quite rational. Build and market bigger more expensive vehicles that could carry their non-production legacy and labor costs and pray for cheap oil.

If I weren't already so disillusioned, it would turn my stomach to hear these cahracters in DC posture about how the car companies and their managements have let America down.

Tell, Mr. and Ms. political genius, why can Ford and GM build very successful, profitable cars outside the US?

ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-01-2009, 08:02 PM   #22
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Tell, Mr. and Ms. political genius, why can Ford and GM build very successful, profitable cars outside the US?
At least two reasons immediately come to mind: legacy retirement benefits and the fact that in foreign countries, GM and Ford aren't as heavily burdened with employee health insurance costs.
__________________

__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 08:58 PM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Naples
Posts: 2,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
At least two reasons immediately come to mind: legacy retirement benefits and the fact that in foreign countries, GM and Ford aren't as heavily burdened with employee health insurance costs.
And government mandates such as 5mph impact bumpers, air bags, bumper heights, emission standards, CAFE requirements, etc. One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!
__________________
JOHNNIE36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 09:13 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North of Montana
Posts: 2,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire View Post
It is a problem with perception. Many people remember the 70's-90's and still think that is the way the D3 make their cars.
\Maybe they should think back to the 60's and early seventies. Early Honda Civics were CRAP. Trouble is, Honda saw it and fixed it sooner.
__________________
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate conclusions from insufficient data and ..
kumquat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 09:37 PM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Tell, Mr. and Ms. political genius, why can Ford and GM build very successful, profitable cars outside the US?

ha
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
At least two reasons immediately come to mind: legacy retirement benefits and the fact that in foreign countries, GM and Ford aren't as heavily burdened with employee health insurance costs.
Hmmm, now wasn't Wagoner the CEO over BOTH the GM that makes money outside the US, and the GM that looses money in the US? If he was so bad, how can that be?

Seems like the differences are the US govt and the UAW.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 09:43 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNNIE36 View Post
And government mandates such as 5mph impact bumpers, air bags, bumper heights, emission standards, CAFE requirements, etc. One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!

Please don't stop - this is good stuff you can't get from newspapers or the 10:00 news.

Q - didn't the foreign mfgs need to make those changes to import their cars too? I assume so, so I'm not getting why this was unfair to GM versus Toyota-Honda etc. I don't doubt the timeline and bureaucracy was a problem, although I do think the high stop lights are a good idea overall.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 10:01 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNNIE36 View Post
One I was personally involved in was the CHIMSL (center high mounted stop lamp). Can't remember how this became a government mandate but all of a sudden we had to engineer this into every car. You can't believe how much time and effort this took and the dollars required to meet the goals and deadlines all set up by our government. I am not bitching about the requirements, but we had to jump through hoops to make this happen within the time limits allowed. It just makes me sick to think of how much stuff we had to work around that the foreign mfg got a free ride. Sorry, I'll stop!
Actually, any new car (foreign made or domestic) sold in the US since model year 1986 had to have one of these lights (so the foreign catr makers didn't get off easy on this one). My 1986 Camry has one. It has been required in new light trucks since model year 1994. This light is credited with reducing rear-end collisions by 4.3%, which is pretty amazing when you consider how cheap this addition was. This could be classed along with some other things (seat belt/shoulder harnesses, energy-absorbing steering columns, side door beams, safety glass, etc) as being unambiguosly of high benefit for each dollar spent. Many other mandates (5 mph bumpers, etc) have been net "losers" for consumers.
Back to the CHIMSL (or "Liddy Light" named after then Secretary of Transportation Elizabeth Dole)--anybody remember how cheezy the first ones were? IIRC, Chrysler just kinda glued it to the rear window on the K-Cars.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 10:03 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Hmmm, now wasn't Wagoner the CEO over BOTH the GM that makes money outside the US, and the GM that looses money in the US? If he was so bad, how can that be?

Seems like the differences are the US govt and the UAW.

-ERD50
That is the point I thought I was making.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
That is the point I thought I was making.

Ha
Understood. I was just taking it to the more specific topic of Wagoner.

There are plenty of other reasons, most of which were mentioned (UAW, EPA, Congress).


-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 10:47 PM   #30
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21
Let me preface this by saying that I currently own now and in the past both domestic and foreign cars. I am not one of those brand zealots that will blindly stick to a brand, I go for the best value on whatever class vehicle that serves my needs. However, I am always amazed by the same tired old myths about domestic car quality, mileage, reliability, and lack of sales.

As I recall it was only in about the last year that GM became the #2 car manufacturer in the world, down from #1, which is now occupied by Toyota. You simply can't sell the most cars in the world and not be selling cars. Just look around, there are a lot of domestic cars on the road. Likely varies from region to region and city to city but overall its not like they were not selling.

I will also match the domestic car quality and reliability since the early 1990's that I have experienced and observed with most comparably priced foreign cars as well. Are there some real stinkers out there, sure but that goes for both domestic and foreign. I know this first hand since I often get to do the repairs on my extended family and friends cars both foreign and domestic. And let me tell you then when it comes to actually getting the repairs done the foreign cars are more expensive to do and often more difficult.

But perhaps I am straying from the real problem here. At the end of the day they are just not making any profit off the cars, which is a requirement to stay in business. Definitely some very bad decisions were made somewhere and some of those were definitely UAW based but likely many others were made as well. I do really believe that the best thing for a free marketplace is to let these car companies make it on their own with no federal assistance. If they can't restructure and solve the problem then it is time for them to go.

Cheers,
Mr Lister
__________________
Lister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 11:53 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNNIE36 View Post
That quote is a bunch of crap and don't believe it for a minute. For the last four years of my career at the General Motors Tech Center in Detroit, I was in monthly meetings with various Vehicle Chief Engineers and Division Sales Chiefs and all emphasis was always on providing a better vehicle than the competition.
They succeeded on large pickups and SUV's. Sorry, noone can convince me that any Cobalt or Cavalier or Sunfire is better quality than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic, there's plenty of data to back that up......

Quote:
Guess the only guy that had it made was Dave McClellan, Vehicle Chief Engineer for Corvette. He had a blank check book and all the "competition" was trying to copy him. No one ever thought it was a given that the public would buy what was produced. I'll give you this, quality on fit and finish was not a top priority until the early 1980's. That's when quality came to the forefront and the Japenese started to made us look bad. I would say that it took us fifteen years to catch up to them and I can't blame the public for switching to the foreign manufacturers. Now we are in the position of having to win back those buyers that left us and that is tough. We are there but it's really hard to convince the American public how good the American cars are. Someone buys a Toyota Camry and it gives them top notch service. Why change to something else. It's a tough road back. Only time will fix it. Maybe the American car will go the way of American made shoes. I don't think any shoes are produced here anymore. Maybe SAS.
Corvette is a LOW production car. High volume cars were the problem, not low volume......

As far as my late client and his comments, well, I can only go on what he told me. He did not specify dates on all he told me, but he's not the kind of guy that would lie for something to do. maybe he was referring to the 1980's. I know he said that GM's brands being sold in Europe were much higher quality than the cars here. Opel platforms were prevalent there and lots of Europeans bought those cars and had great reliability. However, the Cadillac Catera was a dismal failure. Don't get me started on the Cadillac Cimarron experiment.....

I attended a meeting as a guest where Dieter Zietsche spoke. About halfway through he went on a rant about how Mercedes and Chrysler couldn't GET the higher quality parts that Toyota and Honda did, even if they wanted to, because Honda and Toyota had LONG-TERM contracts for those suppliers in place, and there just wasn't enough production capacity to give parts to Chrysler. He didn't seem to be making that up, he was quite pissed........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2009, 11:56 PM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
GM lost billions in Europe in the early part of this decade. Like in the US, they have their good years and their bad years. Bad in the late 90s to 2006, good in 2007 and 2008 (and probably profitable this year as well).

If the US only got rid of the emissions requirements and air bags and mileage requirements, the D3 would be doing OK. How do Toyota and Honda do it?
__________________
eridanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:02 AM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lister View Post
Let me preface this by saying that I currently own now and in the past both domestic and foreign cars. I am not one of those brand zealots that will blindly stick to a brand, I go for the best value on whatever class vehicle that serves my needs. However, I am always amazed by the same tired old myths about domestic car quality, mileage, reliability, and lack of sales.
Show me some hard facts on domestic cars that support your statement and I will listen. I never said domestic cars didn't sell, heck the Big Three have been giving them away for years. They created artificial demand for all their vehicles with $5000 and higher rebates and 6 year 0% financing.........doesn't change the fact that statistics from real world drivers seem to point to the fact that Honda and Toyota and Nissan cars have better overall owner satisfaction that GM or Ford or Chrysler.......

Quote:
As I recall it was only in about the last year that GM became the #2 car manufacturer in the world, down from #1, which is now occupied by Toyota. You simply can't sell the most cars in the world and not be selling cars. Just look around, there are a lot of domestic cars on the road. Likely varies from region to region and city to city but overall its not like they were not selling.
See my statement above. I remember the early 90's, when Pontiac was selling 500,000 cars a year or more. Now, Pontiac will probably be erased as a brand. That didn't happen because sales are still at high levels.....

Quote:
But perhaps I am straying from the real problem here. At the end of the day they are just not making any profit off the cars, which is a requirement to stay in business.
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head..riddle me this, if the Big Three didn't have the UAW, would they still be having the problems they do??
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:03 AM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus View Post
If the US only got rid of the emissions requirements and air bags and mileage requirements, the D3 would be doing OK. How do Toyota and Honda do it?
Because they pay $45 a hour for labor and GM's cost are $65 -$70.......
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:07 AM   #35
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
I attended a meeting as a guest where Dieter Zietsche spoke. About halfway through he went on a rant about how Mercedes and Chrysler couldn't GET the higher quality parts that Toyota and Honda did, even if they wanted to, because Honda and Toyota had LONG-TERM contracts for those suppliers in place, and there just wasn't enough production capacity to give parts to Chrysler. He didn't seem to be making that up, he was quite pissed........
That's interesting. I wonder if maybe Toyota and Honda developed a system of rewarding high-quality suppliers with long-term contracts, while the big-three looked for the very cheapest place they could buy the "good enough" quality pumps, seals, motors, compressors, etc every year.
I think suppliers would make anything the customer wants. But it can't be done instantly, and a customer who has demonstrated a long-term commitment to quality is more likely to have the attention of suppliers than a car company who suddenly gets religion.

If GM wanted people to trust the quality of their cars in 2009, they should have started building good ones (all of them) ten years ago. I really don't know if the Malibu that's getting good reviews today will fall apart in 3 years. Honda and Toyota have earned the trust of the customer.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:12 AM   #36
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Because they pay $45 a hour for labor and GM's cost are $65 -$70.......
As I recall, that difference is mostly retiree health benefits and pensions? There's no question that the unions have been greedy but there's also no question that the management has also been greedy. And shortsighted and unimaginative.

What we see with Detroit, and we saw with Pittsburgh, we'll see with other over-promised pension plans in the future.
__________________
eridanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:20 AM   #37
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by eridanus View Post
As I recall, that difference is mostly retiree health benefits and pensions? There's no question that the unions have been greedy but there's also no question that the management has also been greedy. And shortsighted and unimaginative.
I think that's pretty much it, the actual workers whether UAW or not are making about the same wage..........

Lee Iococca had an article in the AARP mag last month. He flatly stated: "I don't care WHAT you're making, you CAN'T pay $60 an hour or more and expect to make money".........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 12:55 AM   #38
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21
Sorry, noone can convince me that any Cobalt or Cavalier or Sunfire is better quality than a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic, there's plenty of data to back that up......
We can both pull whatever data we want off of a large number of sources from here to eternity and will never necessarily see eye to eye so it is not my intention to convince you. Real world fact is my son and two daughters all had Cavaliers and Sunfires as some of their first cars. Never had any problems with them whatsoever and they drove them well over 100K trouble free miles. Even had a major accident in one and my daughter came away completely unscathed. Real world evidence of safety and quality. I have also personally owned Corollas and I know a number of folks, including my mother who have the Civic. They are good cars, no doubt about it but when comparing any of these cars there is no significant difference, only preferences.
Show me some hard facts on domestic cars that support your statement and I will listen.
As I said we could cite a bunch of "data" all day long and I would not give your proclaimed "facts" any more creedence than you would mine. Its simply a waste of time.
I never said domestic cars didn't sell, heck the Big Three have been giving them away for years.
I actually never said you did, my post was not specifically directed at you, it was a general remark.
They created artificial demand for all their vehicles with $5000 and higher rebates and 6 year 0% financing
Reminds me of what many foreign countries have done over the years to subsidize their car manufacturers so they could sell or also known as dump their cars in a market.
...doesn't change the fact that statistics from real world drivers seem to point to the fact that Honda and Toyota and Nissan cars have better overall owner satisfaction that GM or Ford or Chrysler.
I also am a real world driver and so is everyone I know. Owner satisfcation is subjective and not something I would hang my hat on in making a major purchase.
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head..riddle me this, if the Big Three didn't have the UAW, would they still be having the problems they do??
We can only speculate since there is likely a myriad of problems that have put them where they are but based on simple logic the problem that they would have would have to be less because it is one less problem. I also do not think gettign rid of the UAW constraints would make the problem worse.
Mr Lister
__________________
Lister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 04:43 AM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Actually, any new car (foreign made or domestic) sold in the US since model year 1986 had to have one of these lights (so the foreign catr makers didn't get off easy on this one). My 1986 Camry has one. It has been required in new light trucks since model year 1994. This light is credited with reducing rear-end collisions by 4.3%, which is pretty amazing when you consider how cheap this addition was. This could be classed along with some other things (seat belt/shoulder harnesses, energy-absorbing steering columns, side door beams, safety glass, etc) as being unambiguosly of high benefit for each dollar spent. .
Sam did I just read you say something positive about government regulation? It actually save consumers money and saved lives.

Must be some type of April fools joke
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2009, 09:26 AM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lister View Post
We can both pull whatever data we want off of a large number of sources from here to eternity and will never necessarily see eye to eye so it is not my intention to convince you. Real world fact is my son and two daughters all had Cavaliers and Sunfires as some of their first cars. Never had any problems with them whatsoever and they drove them well over 100K trouble free miles. Even had a major accident in one and my daughter came away completely unscathed. Real world evidence of safety and quality. I have also personally owned Corollas and I know a number of folks, including my mother who have the Civic. They are good cars, no doubt about it but when comparing any of these cars there is no significant difference, only preferences.
Well, stating that there is NO real difference in quality between a Cavalier/Sunfire and a Corolla made me smile.........so congrats on that........

I see a lot of 10-15 year old Corollas on the road, how many 10-15 year old Cavaliers are still on the road?
__________________

__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Consumer Reports WRT Toyota & Ford Midpack Other topics 11 12-09-2008 02:00 PM
Now Look what Chrysler Is Doing......... FinanceDude Other topics 22 05-12-2008 03:14 PM
Chrysler checks used vehicle performance REWahoo Other topics 29 10-19-2006 11:19 AM
Changed Again, Now Trying for a Saturn VUE (Sorry Kia & Ford) ShokWaveRider Life after FIRE 123 02-18-2006 02:20 PM
GM & Ford debt lowered to junk soupcxan FIRE and Money 31 05-11-2005 12:54 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:25 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.