Severance

[boont]

The business section of the local San Francisco paper had an interesting article the other day.

Bank of America, I think it was, is outsourcing jobs to India. They are flying in people from India to get training. And get this.

If you do not train the new person in your job Bank of America will not give you your severance pay.

If that doesn't fire America up to say, "We've had enough" I don't know what will.

boont

 

[Craig]

Frustrating indeed, but had enough of what, and do what?  Unless you have a contract, or a written policy to the contrary, severance is discretionary ... your mileage may vary in the People's Republic of CA.

You might view that compensation as more of a retention bonus than anything else ... your job is going away, but we'll pay you to assist in the transition.  Sad situation, but a market reality these days.  We've lost our dominance in many areas, and it is wrenching ... we've felt it in our own working lives, without doubt.  Only logical response is more savings, education, less debt, flexibility to move with the work.

 

[boont]

"Move with the work"

Reminds me of the dust bowl and "The Grapes of Wrath"..

Is that the best we can do in the richest nation on earth. We have more money and power than the Roman Empire had at it's height.

A huge percentage of the population says it wants health care but they don't even control their own democracy.

I read recently that if you want anything done in Congress don't go to a Congressman go to a corporation and if they agree they will have their lobbyist get it done.

I'm going to write my corporation.

boont

 

[Craig]

Free markets can be unsettling, literally ...

The U.S. became great, and rich, partly because of the free markets some now abhor.

 

[boont]

When you say "free market" I ask free for whom?

Doctors are able to limit the number of graduates from medical school to protect themselves.

I think you confuse who rules. Political power rules over markets. Farmers rule enough to close their markets.

I want political power for employees in balance with the political power of corporations and Wall Street.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't just repeat a mantra of "markets" try and think for yourself.

boont

 

[Craig]

No mantra, comrade.  And, I think for myself just fine, my friend.


So, boont, what's your solution to the BofA problem?

 

[bosco]

Free markets can be unsettling, literally ...

The U.S. became great, and rich, partly because of the free markets some now abhor.

free market schemes like the Taft-Hartley act, child labor laws, immigration restrictions, etc.?

Since the government has a history of regulating commerce, immigration, etc. etc., are you saying the U.S. would be even greater and richer without all these annoying impediments?

I'm sure you do think for yourself, but your propoganda is really old hat.... If I want to hear that kind of stuff, I'll just dig out an old Ayn Rand novel or turn on Fox News for some "fair and unbiased" (tm) reporting.

 

[Craig]

In many cases we would be stronger with less regulation, yes.

Propaganda? Do you refer to your opinions in the same way?

Free market concepts are old hat? Fascinating. I thought the votes were in, and free / freer markets had won ...

 

[bosco]

Fascinating. I thought the votes were in, and free / freer markets had won ...

depends on who you poll. If you take your poll at the corporate boardroom, I'm sure that is true. And those of us on this board have likely benefited.

But I'm not at all certain that the modern trend of "corporations ueber alles" has had a beneficial effect in the world, and believe that there is a large class of people who have ended up the losers.

BTW, if the markets are so free, why do I have to pay US income tax on money I earn when working and living in Canada (shouldn't my labor be a commodity for sale on a free market?), and why do I have to pay duty on anything over $400 I bring into the US?

I think they are only free for the likes of Walmart and Microsoft.

And to answer your question, yes, to be fair probably my own opinions qualify as much as propaganda as yours. It's just something about your phraseology...sounds like a Republican commercial or a Chamber of Commerce booster meeting.

 

[Craig]

bosco, boont ... enjoy Canada and CA, but please don't insult me by calling me a Republican ...

Free markets are not really the phraseology of Republicans ... consider that term more the domain of libertarians (small "L") and like thinkers.

Pointing out flaws in the American system, and regulation of our markets is not an indictment of free markets.  Modern "mercantilism" differs considerably from the concept of free markets.

We'll agree to disagree.  This debate is a waste of your time and mine ... the philosophical gulf is way too wide.

 

[samclem]

bosco,
I missed the part where you had a proposed answer to the challenges posed by the free market. BofA needs the work done, they apparently believe Inddian workers can do it for less money. How would you propose that this be prevented?
Trade/labor restrictions won't work--they'll just make the US less competitive (anyone who bought a US made small car in the 70's while we artifically kept out import cars can vouch for how well that works). It's a worldwide market and if Americans can't compete then they'll not have jobs. At any rate they won't have the same jobs.
One response to the BofA situation that is consistent with free market mechanisms would be a boycott/consumer response. Folks who feel strongly about BofA's outsourcing of jobs could let them know, and move their money to another bank. Maybe pressure businesses to do business with "US Only" banks. I don't think this has a high likelihood of success, but it would make folks feel better.
Sorry about your tax burden to the US. I think the theory is that you are a US citizen and derive various benefits therefrom regardless of where you live and work. Of course, a huge number of people on this planet would give a lot to be US citizens. If you renounce your US citizenship, would you be free of this tax burden? (I'm not saying you should do that).

 

[d]

... the philosophical gulf is way too wide

as too often, on so many issues, it seems to be

 

[bosco]

If you renounce your US citizenship, would you be free of this tax burden? (I'm not saying you should do that).

no. Evidently, the IRS still believes that they can continue to tax for 10 years after such a renunciation.

For the record, I have no intention of renouncing my US citizenship despite the fact that it was not something I ever sought to attain (long story, don't want to go into it now). I have family and pieces of my life on both sides of the border. My complaining about the tax situation is not a complaint about my personal tax situation.

I have received, and continue to receive benefits from US citizenship, and gladly pay my taxes (I currently work in Alaska) to the IRS. When I receive my pension and IRA distributions from US sources, I have absolutely no problem paying taxes to the source of that income (the US) as well. I am not complaining about the tax burden per se.

I just feel it is extremely heavy-handed and unfair to tax expats that are living and deriving their income in another country just because they are US citizens. The US is virtually the only country in the world to do this and to me it is extremely arrogant.

Kindly tell me what the great benefits of US citizenship are to, for example, someone who was born in the US, moved to Canada at age 2, and lived and worked in Canada thereafter. What possible justification is there to tax this person in the US?

At the risk of starting a political argument, or being accused of being "unpatriotic", this policy seems to bely an underlying attitude. Examining this attitude might be instructive in understanding how the rest of the world feels about Americans. As an example, take the hypothetical person above (or me, who was born in Canada and naturalized in the US). If a US citizen IN CANADA buys and smokes a Cuban cigar IN CANADA, they can be arrested and prosecuted IN THE US. Does this seem reasonable? I realize there are practical reasons why it might be difficult to build a case against them, but gimme a break....

"freedom is on the march..."

 

[samclem]

Kindly tell me what the great benefits of US citizenship are to, for example, someone who was born in the US, moved to Canada at age 2, and lived and worked in Canada thereafter. What possible justification is there to tax this person in the US?

I guess "benefits" are in the eye of the beholder. One way to tag the value of something is to see what folks are willing to pay for it. Althopugh citizenship can't be sold, I'd say that, if it could, that this hypothetical person's citiznship would be worth quite a bit to many folks. So, that is at least an indicator that it has value. Other items that I would value in this situation:
-- The continuing, lifelong ability to move to/reside in/work in the world's largest economy and one of the most free and open societies that has ever been (and at the risk of being seen as jingoistic--I'd say the finest nation on the planet, as proclaimed by millions of immigrants throughout the last century).
- The services of US consulates around the world when you travel. Maybe even the services of the US military, if required.
- The right to vote and influence events in the US.
- The right to pass US citizenship to your children.
- But, as I admit, some folks might not see things this way, even in the very constrained situation you described. In which case, I guess they could renounce their citizenship and have nothing further due to the IRS in 10 years. I'll bet few of them do.

 

[bosco]

I guess "benefits" are in the eye of the beholder. One way to tag the value of something is to see what folks are willing to pay for it. Althopugh citizenship can't be sold, I'd say that, if it could, that this hypothetical person's citiznship would be worth quite a bit to many folks. So, that is at least an indicator that it has value. Other items that I would value in this situation:
-- The continuing, lifelong ability to move to/reside in/work in the world's largest economy and one of the most free and open societies that has ever been (and at the risk of being seen as jingoistic--I'd say the finest nation on the planet, as proclaimed by millions of immigrants throughout the last century).
- The services of US consulates around the world when you travel. Maybe even the services of the US military, if required.
- The right to vote and influence events in the US.
- The right to pass US citizenship to your children.
- But, as I admit, some folks might not see things this way, even in the very constrained situation you described. In which case, I guess they could renounce their citizenship and have nothing further due to the IRS in 10 years. I'll bet few of them do.

if I am not mistaken, voting requires residency so that one does not count even if your vote is counted which seems increasingly unlikely.

In my case, once I am done working, I would not renounce US citizenship. I doubt I will be over the $80,000 anyway. I do have relatives in the US, however, and despite the "freedom and openness" of the society, somehow I don't trust the gummit to not deny me access at a critical time in retaliation. I have no need to try to make a statement. I can be discrete when I enjoy a Cuban cigar

as for the other benefits, I don't expect to need them.

BTW, you are no doubt aware that a lot of Americans are willing to pay money to move OUT of the US. I suspect many of the immigrants would be happy to emigrate to any western industrialized nation, given the chance.

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me what all is reported on Canadian or British media that never sees the light of day in the US. The US has gone a long way to losing their free press. Not by government censorship, more censorship by corporate fiat. I'm not even bringing up "free speech zone."

 

[youbet]

I find this discussion somewhat uplifting.    The USA has issues today as it has always had since its founding.  People are free to speak up, sound off on their grievances and promote change through their words, actions and votes.  Yet, almost all hold their citizenship dear and will not renounce it.  Millions beat a path to our door, few seek to leave.  It's certainly not perfection, but it's my best alternative.

 

[2soon2tell]

Youbet

I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, our system is not perfect but it works for the betterment of most folks.

2soon

 

[Craig]

Amen

 

[AltaRed]

Finally, it never ceases to amaze me what all is reported on Canadian or British media that never sees the light of day in the US.  The US has gone a long way to losing their free press.  Not by government censorship, more censorship by corporate fiat.  I'm not even bringing up "free speech zone."

That is one of the most troubling things going in USA today. Most Americans only hear what CNN and Fox and the networks have to say...and take that as the current state of the world. It is unfortunate BBC World News channel is not readily available on cable as it has the most balanced reporting of any news network I've seen worldwide. When I used to make business trips to mostly mainland Europe every 3-4 weeks, I'd make a point of getting at least 3-4 hours of BBC World News each trip.

The only widely distributed alternative for Americans seems to be The Economist (paper or electronic form).

 

[Nords]

That is one of the most troubling things going in USA today.  Most Americans only hear what CNN and Fox and the networks have to say...and take that as the current state of the world.  It is unfortunate BBC World News channel is not readily available on cable as it has the most balanced reporting of any news network I've seen worldwide.  When I used to make business trips to mostly mainland Europe every 3-4 weeks, I'd make a point of getting at least 3-4 hours of BBC World News each trip.

My personal concept of TV hell is a Bangkok hotel room with two TV channels-- CNN International & the BBC. Luckily we found other things to do.

Maybe now that he has some time on his hands, Thaksin could start up a FOX franchise!

 

[tryan]

Makes pensions look rock-solid ... my former employer cut the severenve in half and devised a 7 page "release form" which had to be signed before you could collect. Apparently someone got tired of fighting law suits with former employees. No word on whether this actually worked to curb suits.

Last couple laid off people I spoke to refused to sign the release citing the size of the severence as the reason.