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-   -   Wow --- Did you see what Isreal did to Syria? (http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/wow-did-you-see-what-isreal-did-to-syria-30101.html)

chinaco 09-19-2007 02:32 AM

Wow --- Did you see what Isreal did to Syria?
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/wo...html?ref=world

Wonder if they will go to Iran next.

USK Coastie 09-19-2007 10:54 AM

You should worry that if attacked by any of those non existant WMD's floating around the Middle East Isreal will will turn a few places into radioactive glass. Had not Bush senior put patriot missles in Isreal in Gulf War 1 Isreal would have responded with their WMD's had they been attacked with same.

The boys in Iran are playing with fire with their NUC program. If we go after the NUC progam in Iran and Iran launches on Isreal with WMD's you can kiss the most Irianian cities good by.

If we don't go after them in Iran, Isreal will, as it has with Syria and with Iraq when the world would not/could not act.

bosco 09-19-2007 12:31 PM

Let's hope the present US administration is more restrained than USK Coastie's rantings.

Although judging by how he spells 'Israel' I wonder if he isn't GWB himself running up a trial balloon.....

I just love loose talk about nuking people!!!

Zipper 09-19-2007 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USK Coastie (Post 557568)
You should worry that if attacked by any of those non existant WMD's floating around the Middle East Isreal will will turn a few places into radioactive glass. Had not Bush senior put patriot missles in Isreal in Gulf War 1 Isreal would have responded with their WMD's had they been attacked with same.

The boys in Iran are playing with fire with their NUC program. If we go after the NUC progam in Iran and Iran launches on Isreal with WMD's you can kiss the most Irianian cities good by.

If we don't go after them in Iran, Isreal will, as it has with Syria and with Iraq when the world would not/could not act.

To think that my grandchildren would be threatened by such utter nonsense scares the hell out of me.

tryan 09-19-2007 03:48 PM

Israel knows how to do it right ... great intel followed by a precise attack.

Lots of lessons there.

bosco 09-19-2007 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tryan (Post 557691)
Israel knows how to do it right ... great intel followed by a precise attack.

Lots of lessons there.

yeah, and they're pretty good at bulldozing minority settlements, building walls, and building their own settlements in illegal areas too.

There is lots to admire about Israel, but also lots of which to be critical.

They are the only country I know of that staged an all-out attack on a US ship, and managed to get off the hook by saying "oops--sorry!" It is extremely questionable that this was an accidental attack.

see USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's amazing about this incident is how few remember it. What is clear is that Israel did not want its mobilization for the war it wanted to claim was defensive known by other nations.

My point being that Israel can be depended upon to act in Israel's interest, NOT the United State's interest. Best not to encourage a mean dog to attack unless you are sure you have control of it.

FinanceGeek 09-19-2007 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosco (Post 557707)
My point being that Israel can be depended upon to act in Israel's interest, NOT the United State's interest. Best not to encourage a mean dog to attack unless you are sure you have control of it.

Given the circumstances surrounding the founding of Israel and the migration of people who came to populate it over the last 100 years or so, it only stands to reason that such a society would defend their interests regardless of how those interests overlap with other countries, and regardless of world opinion generally.

bosco 09-19-2007 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinanceGeek (Post 557720)
Given the circumstances surrounding the founding of Israel and the migration of people who came to populate it over the last 100 years or so, it only stands to reason that such a society would defend their interests regardless of how those interests overlap with other countries, and regardless of world opinion generally.

Maybe so, that's the usual line, but let's not pretend that propensity makes them trustworthy allies of the US.

I can't fault Israel for defending herself. I can fault her, however, for the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and for extreme heavy-handedness in dealing with minorities. Sometimes her actions go well beyond defense--like bulldozing out Palistinian apartments to have a "buffer zone." If a buffer zone is so important, why not bulldoze Israeli homes to construct it? Or how about attacking and gutting the Palestinian authority, and then complaining that they had no control over the populace?

Before it becomes an issue, I'd like to state up front that I'd far rather live under an Israeli government than an Arab one, and I am not anti-Israeli. I just don't believe that Israel is behaving in the most constructive manner toward settling the mess. Normally, I'd say it's none of my business. But since 1/6 of the entire US foreign aid budget (i.e. my taxes) goes to Israel, it seems the US should have something to say about it.

There also seems to be a giant double-standard in the US where behavior by Israel is tolerated that wouldn't be tolerated from any other nation (how come nobody cares about their WMDs, for example). Some of this is understandable and due to the attitude expressed by FinanceGeek, but at some point it becomes destabilizing to the region. I believe we are well beyond that point.

chinaco 09-20-2007 01:43 AM

Bosco... Israel has had many scrapes with Syria... Look at Lebanon. They are in a state of war. In fact Israel is besieged by several adversaries that have State supported goals to destroy them. Just look at Syria. These two countries have been at war for quite a while. They just take frequent breaks from the shooting.


For whatever reason, we seem to be backing the Israel. I suspect that we will continue to do so. They are a partner and that relationship is in our strategic interest.

Unfortunately, it appears that the leadership of Iran wants to provoke the US and run covert operations against us and give support to our enemies... Iran is our enemy, Iran is Israel's enemy. I hope we take the collar off the dog and let them deal with Iran! The sooner the better. It does not require nuclear weapons.... No need to go in country with troops. Some convention bombs or cruise missiles will do it.

I hope they take those nuclear facilities out. Drop leaflets warning the people a few days ahead to get out. Then go to it.

Right now... like it or not, we are at war (not talking Iraq here)... It is just a covert war with several enemies. Israel is at war with those same enemies. They are common enemies. It is unfortunate but true. They would like to destroy us.

FinallyRetired 09-20-2007 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zipper (Post 557685)
To think that my grandchildren would be threatened by such utter nonsense scares the hell out of me.

Unfortunately, USK is correct on the following: ""You should worry that if attacked by any of those non existant WMD's floating around the Middle East Isreal will will turn a few places into radioactive glass."

The fact is, Israel has a nuclear arsenal as a last gap deterrence against its destruction -- this is essentially the same nuclear policy that other nuclear states have. If Israel is attacked with WMDs, I don't think they will sit around and watch another holocaust take place within their own borders, I think they will use their deterrent.

I do worry about this for my grandchildren, also for my children and ourselves -- especially with the new Iranian nuclear problem. If it were up to me I would do whatever I could to de-nuclearize the Middle East, Israel included. I wouldn't stop there, I would de-nuclearize the world. In spite of all that is said about global warming, bird flu, etc, I still think nuclear war is the most likely way to end it all. It's not a nice thing to think about, which is why it becomes the "unthinkable" and not many want to address it.

travelover 09-20-2007 07:04 AM

  • War Is Peace
  • Freedom Is Slavery
  • Ignorance Is Strength

FinanceDude 09-20-2007 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoonToRetire (Post 557852)
Unfortunately, USK is correct on the following: ""You should worry that if attacked by any of those non existant WMD's floating around the Middle East Isreal will will turn a few places into radioactive glass."

The fact is, Israel has a nuclear arsenal as a last gap deterrence against its destruction -- this is essentially the same nuclear policy that other nuclear states have. If Israel is attacked with WMDs, I don't think they will sit around and watch another holocaust take place within their own borders, I think they will use their deterrent.

I do worry about this for my grandchildren, also for my children and ourselves -- especially with the new Iranian nuclear problem. If it were up to me I would do whatever I could to de-nuclearize the Middle East, Israel included. I wouldn't stop there, I would de-nuclearize the world. In spite of all that is said about global warming, bird flu, etc, I still think nuclear war is the most likely way to end it all. It's not a nice thing to think about, which is why it becomes the "unthinkable" and not many want to address it.

Unfortunately, the only "deterrent" that Israel has are the nukes. Israel is our best ally and buffer zone there, which is why we sell them all our advanced weaponry and such.

FinallyRetired 09-20-2007 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinanceDude (Post 557898)
Unfortunately, the only "deterrent" that Israel has are the nukes. Israel is our best ally and buffer zone there, which is why we sell them all our advanced weaponry and such.

That's why this is such a difficult problem. Up to now, Israel hasn't needed anything other than great conventional arms and tactics to defeat their enemies. Whether nuclear deterrence helped is arguable, but the equation is changing with respect to Iran and, possibly in the future, with Pakistan. As long as all regional actors are rational, they could establish a new nuclear balance. But given the nutcase Iranian President, and the other nuts running around, you have to wonder if the time will come when someone will think they can survive a nuclear strike for the sake of taking out the much smaller Israel. This is when it gets very dangerous, and the calculus of deterrence breaks down. At that point, I think de-nuclearization of the entire region makes more sense, especially since it would be difficult to contain a nuclear exchange.

Fred333 09-20-2007 03:04 PM

I think it has been escalating more and more every day. Once you mix in the nukes it will mean big problems for the rest of the world not just the middle east.

bosco 09-20-2007 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinanceDude (Post 557898)
Unfortunately, the only "deterrent" that Israel has are the nukes. Israel is our best ally and buffer zone there, which is why we sell them all our advanced weaponry and such.

Aside from all our cultural biases, under what basis is it legal for Israel to have nuclear arms, but not for Iraq or Iran?

Israel is in flagrant disregard of more UN resolutions than Saddam ever was.

Like I said previously, I'd rather live in Israel than Iran. But credibility is lost when a nation tries to use UN resolutions as the basis of invasions, but ignores them when it relates to an "ally."

I think we all agree that we'd rather Iran and Pakistan not have nukes. Personally, I'd rather nobody had them. But if international law means anything, these questions have to be asked. Then again, maybe it means nothing. In which case, let's cut the BS and just admit might makes right and the US has the most might....

Corporateburnout 09-20-2007 05:50 PM

Israel is losing ground in the fight against its enemies such was the case last summer when its air force destroyed half of Lebanon but failed to silence hezbullah missiles that hit many cities and killed many Israelis.

IMHO the only solution to the problem is for Israel to return the land it occupied in 1967 and later annexed in exchange for peace with the Syrians. Doing so will move Syria away from radical Iran which would further isolate it and eliminate the supply route of weapons from Iran to Hezbullah in Lebanon. This will weaken this group and will strengthen the pro western government in Lebanon to allow it to disarm and control this group.

redduck 09-20-2007 06:02 PM

Bosco, let me help you here, you are anti-Israel.

bosco 09-20-2007 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redduck (Post 558091)
Bosco, let me help you here, you are anti-Israel.

No, let me help you. I'm against illegal annexation of territory. I am for peace in the middle east. I am against institutionalized poverty. I don't think rock-throwing teenagers are any match for the Israeli army, nor do I think shooting them is a reasonable response. I am against suicide bombing. I'm against a constant state of war between Israel and its neighbours. I don't hold the Arabs harmless in all this--far from it. But the US has some leverage over Israel, and by her actions she has lost any credibility in the Arab world.

The US is an enabler in this situation. Let the US lean on Israel to settle the mess. Why is the US not insisting that the recommendations of the Mitchell report be followed? There is nothing to be gained by waiting any longer--unless your true goal is still expansion.

If it's all the same for you, I'll decide what I am anti.

saluki9 09-21-2007 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bosco (Post 558138)
No, let me help you. I'm against illegal annexation of territory. I am for peace in the middle east. I am against institutionalized poverty. I don't think rock-throwing teenagers are any match for the Israeli army, nor do I think shooting them is a reasonable response. I am against suicide bombing. I'm against a constant state of war between Israel and its neighbours. I don't hold the Arabs harmless in all this--far from it. But the US has some leverage over Israel, and by her actions she has lost any credibility in the Arab world.

The US is an enabler in this situation. Let the US lean on Israel to settle the mess. Why is the US not insisting that the recommendations of the Mitchell report be followed? There is nothing to be gained by waiting any longer--unless your true goal is still expansion.

If it's all the same for you, I'll decide what I am anti.

Actually, I'm starting to agree with Redduck.

The Arab neighbors in the region have enough money to pave the streets of gaza and the west bank with gold a foot thick. Instead, they let their people starve in order to further their mission to destroy Israel.

I do not understand why Israel needs to pay for food, energy, and water for a group of people bent on their destruction. Let the other Arabs take care of them. Instead of food, all they send is weapons and money for suicide bombings.

bosco 09-21-2007 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saluki9 (Post 558279)
Actually, I'm starting to agree with Redduck.


I do not understand why Israel needs to pay for food, energy, and water for a group of people bent on their destruction.

maybe because they took their land, put them in camps and are are still taking more of it?

I agree that the rest of the Arab world could contribute something besides money for bombs. Such a contribution would need to be part of a peace settlement. But like I said before, no peace settlement will ever occur so long as Israel keeps settling new territory, and the US has no leverage over the Arabs at this point, rather the opposite. The US could apply leverage to Israel to get serious about peace instead of deliberately continuing to incite things, then acting like they are innocent victims.

Want to gain leverage over Arabs? Simple. Quit buying their oil. Not likely anytime soon.


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