Progressive State Recognizes Futility of Public Schooling

Looks like a good program. I'm curious to see its implementation.
 
Sounds good to me. After reading the basic premise, I immediately thought "wow, sounds like someone has been taking note of how many other countries run their secondary education systems".

Finally an education program targeted towards making things better and more challenging for the top half of students, instead of more programs to make sure the bottom half don't fail too bad.

Anecdotally speaking, at my particular "elite" high school ten years ago, 11th and 12th grades were essentially college classes with the top half of students taking most or all AP classes and/or college classes. This would essentially formalize the process of teaching college/uni level classes to those same kids.

It would have been good to see a proposal like this at the national level during the campaign season instead of the platforms put forth by both candidates.
 
Hmm, well my educationally unexceptional 17 year old benefited from 4 years of high school - he is now getting mostly B's!!!! That would not have happened if he got the boot in 10th grade. Now he believes he can go to college and be successful.

The time was important for him to continue to be in the high school sheltered (relatively) environment, and the watchful eye of his guidance counselors (who have done an exceptional job working with us).

There is definitely a need for radical solutions, just not sure this would be the one, although I'd consider it if the options included something besides sending him off to college too early. College isn't just about classes, it's about maturity and independence too. Many of us nerds who went off to school at 17 or 18 struggled with that independence, and would have had a vastly different experience if we were sent off too soon.
 
bright eyed said:
Hmm, well my educationally unexceptional 17 year old benefited from 4 years of high school - he is now getting mostly B's!!!! That would not have happened if he got the boot in 10th grade. Now he believes he can go to college and be successful.

The time was important for him to continue to be in the high school sheltered (relatively) environment, and the watchful eye of his guidance counselors (who have done an exceptional job working with us).

There is definitely a need for radical solutions, just not sure this would be the one, although I'd consider it if the options included something besides sending him off to college too early. College isn't just about classes, it's about maturity and independence too. Many of us nerds who went off to school at 17 or 18 struggled with that independence, and would have had a vastly different experience if we were sent off too soon.
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I only wish I could have left high school earlier (only boys got to skip classes). High school was he!!.
 
In Oregon some students who are having difficulty in pen & pencil classes are permitted to enroll in Community College where they have greater access to vocational programs. One of my nephews did that, entered an auto tech track.. and by golly the math he couldn't understand in high school became a slam dunk when applied to his area of interest. Particularly with boys (who usually mature later) keeping them in school through a vocational program can be a life saver. Today he is happy as can be as manager at Costco, still hates the desk part of his job and loves to be on the floor.

At the other end of the spectrum another nephew was told that his school had no more to offer, that he should consider other schools. His parents opted for a scholarship to a very selective HS because they didn't think he was ready socially for college. He is now an individual contributor at MS.

In my opinion there is no reason why classes taken in a college setting shouldn't be credited against a HS diploma at the same time that they are earned as college credits. If the student wants to go on to a selective university they should be permitted to take the SAT at the same time as those who stuck with the standard HS program.

For those who don't know, the International Baccalaureate exam is TOUGH. The SAT is a cake-walk in comparison.
 
Both of my parents skipped a couple of grades in school, entered university at 16 and graduated before their 20th birthdays. They wouldn't let my sister and me skip any grades, said it turned you into a social outcast. Last few years of HS were boring.

Bring it on: at least for the academically talented and for those who want to work in the skilled trades, unsure about the others.
 
My sister-in-law has been involved with an IB program - she was trying to get one set up in her area.

Yes, very good quality, tough education.

ta,
mew

skipping years - my mother did, and didn't think it was a bad idea. I think it depends on the age and maturity of the student - and if there are good honors / AP classes around, staying in whatever grade might be more useful.
 
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I'd say change the system to: elementary school 8 years. Classes 6 days per week. This is the system I went through. Worked very well. Give exam to check for fitness/aptitude for academia or trades.

Then give the option, weather to continue in school, trade or be done. Most who opts against continuing schooling, likely will change minds about working hard labor for a few years.

Those who decide pushing pencil for a living is better than shoveling will re-enter school and make for a better motivated student.

Fire away.
 
Is99, that would work in many areas where there is agreement on the day of worship. Unfortunately class days will stay at 5 a week. What parents who are involved in their children's education do is take a day to enrich their education. Some take language or science or arts classes, others go to the library.

The OP implied that public schooling is futile. I don't think that is the case. I think that the program is too rigid. It would be great to have a 'voucher' for 12 years of public schooling and when the student has completed the 8th grade the parents can pick the best track for their child, even interrupt his or her education for a year or two if they choose. I recall a classmate of my son's who was heck on wheels. His parents sent him to a developing country on a service project. When he returned he was a changed kid and reflected an appreciation of the opportunities afforded him.
 
I actually question one of the points in this article:

Critics of cutting high school short, however, worry that proposals such as New Hampshire's could exacerbate existing socioeconomic gaps. One key concern is whether test results, at age 16, are really valid enough to indicate if a child should go to university or instead head to a technical school - with the latter almost certainly guaranteeing lower future earning potential.
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Almost certainly? I'm not convinced.

In a day and age where everyone is expected to go to college, a degree is becoming a commodity like a high school diploma was in past generations. We're becoming a society where everyone can program computers or design electrical circuits or practice medicine and so on... and fewer and fewer people can overhaul an engine, service an elevator or replace old, rusted pipes because those blue-collar jobs are "beneath" their precious little ones.

Add to that the fact that many of the trades are some of the most offshoring-resistant careers there are -- are you going to ship a transmission to China or India to fix it? -- and I would not at all be surprised if in 10-20 years we have glut of workers in "highly educated" fields and not enough people in the trades.

I think the idea that everyone needs to go to college is vastly overrated and, in many cases, a positive disservice to some kids. The more college is emphasized and the more everyone is steered to it, the less value a degree adds. I wonder how long it will be until the graduate degree is considered the minimum education level to be hired for anything. Insanity...
 
ziggy29 said:
I actually question one of the points in this article:

Almost certainly? I'm not convinced.

In a day and age where everyone is expected to go to college, a degree is becoming a commodity like a high school diploma was in past generations. We're becoming a society where everyone can program computers or design electrical circuits or practice medicine and so on... and fewer and fewer people can overhaul an engine, service an elevator or replace old, rusted pipes because those blue-collar jobs are "beneath" their precious little ones.

Add to that the fact that many of the trades are some of the most offshoring-resistant careers there are -- are you going to ship a transmission to China or India to fix it? -- and I would not at all be surprised if in 10-20 years we have glut of workers in "highly educated" fields and not enough people in the trades.

I think the idea that everyone needs to go to college is vastly overrated and, in many cases, a positive disservice to some kids. The more college is emphasized and the more everyone is steered to it, the less value a degree adds. I wonder how long it will be until the graduate degree is considered the minimum education level to be hired for anything. Insanity...
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Not only is the premise wrong, it is beside the point. We don't have to offer Harvard to every possibly late blooming and also possibly dull, non-achieving student.

Time for a little triage- we are drowning in costs and poor outcomes.

Ha
 
Absolutely we are drowning in costs and poor outcomes, I think because we are trying to push students through the same educational pipe line. We need a different type of voucher system that can be used once a student has passed a basic skills test, a voucher that can be pocketed and used when the student is ready to acquire either academic or vocational skills. Many boys don't have 'sitting flesh' for academics in adolescence but they often settle down a couple years later and look back at wasted opportunities. Some students find high school boring, they are ready for class work that challenges. Idle minds in school are a waste of resources.

Many have bemoaned the lack of achievement by our high school students when compared to other nations. What many fail to realize is that the student body tested isn't as all encompassing as our own, those who aren't academically inclined aren't in the testing pool, they are in the trades or working.

The one thing that concerns me is that children from dysfunctional homes will be shuffled off track. A student without engaged and caring parents will retreat to the streets. That happens even now but maybe, if these kids are picked up by law enforcement, that services - including what is available in an education voucher - can re-direct their lives.
 
Brat said:
Many have bemoaned the lack of achievement by our high school students when compared to other nations. What many fail to realize is that the student body tested isn't as all encompassing as our own, those who aren't academically inclined aren't in the testing pool, they are in the trades or working.
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That may be true. But it is also true here in the States. If you test a typical 11th or 12th grade class, you won't be testing all the folks held back for one or more years and who have not reached 11th or 12th grade yet. You also won't be testing the hordes of dropouts. And the dropouts are predominantly the ones that weren't doing so well in school.

So I don't know that US vs. foreign test results are really skewed one way or the other. It would be interesting to see facts on this, including some adjustment to the test scores to account for this. It is rather disappointing to see the US consistently falling in the bottom third of OECD countries in their triennial education surveys. I don't recall what grade level or ages were tested in the OECD surveys I'm thinking of.
 
ls99 said:
Then give the option, weather to continue in school, trade or be done. Most who opts against continuing schooling, likely will change minds about working hard labor for a few years.

Those who decide pushing pencil for a living is better than shoveling will re-enter school and make for a better motivated student.
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That's what happened with me. I was so bored in HS that I almost dropped out, continuing only because it was my senior year and I figured since I was that close I might as well stay with it. Little of the coursework seemed relevant to anything - algebra and geometry particularly so, until I wanted to learn to fly an airplane. Only then did the relevance become clear. I needed someone to show me practical applications for all that stuff and no one did.

I took a semester off, unloading trucks at a department store, deciding whether to go into the military or go to the local community college. Decided on the college, since if I didn't like that I could quit and go in the military, but that doesn't work the other way around. Also this was in 1968, Viet Nam was in full swing, and I wasn't enthused about being sent to someplace I couldn't find on a map to get shot at for reasons I didn't understand. So I found I (generally) liked the college except for the required underwater basket weaving classes, hired on with the police department and launched from there.
 
My early years were a bit more complicated. 8 yrs elementary school, 1yr (kinda like American High school) 3 yrs Industrial Electrician school. High priority interrupt: Got passport to emigrate to USA. There is a very long story in there.......I'll pass on that for now...

Go to local high school in NY with note from my brother: I need a work permit. Start working in a local factory making early style integrated circuits (really discrete devices encapsulated) all the while learning English.

Got drafted at 19, in 1967 ("green card" holder permanent resident privilege
grin.gif
), beat the draft date by enlisting in US Army before draft date. Got to travel to interesting places and do interesting things. Enhance English vocabulary with high quality military expletives.

And so on. Did not get to college until 1983, Got a BS degree in 5yrs while working full time. Having plenty of life experience in the school of hard knocks, arguing with professors with impunity, priceless.

So you might see why I'd be agains forcing anyone to enter high school.
 
Love it!

Immigrants are the folks with get-up & go because they got up and went. They also are more likely to have hope that they can improve on their opportunities. People like you are rock solid. Assuming that you have children, what did you tell them about high school and what did they do?
 
Eh, no kids. With the type of work/life I followed, no woman stuck around long enough for marriage, or kids. What fascinated them at first encounters were the very things they came to resent in short order when I continued doing them.

Got married several years ago, must be getting slow.
grin.gif
rolleyes.gif


OTOH my nieces did finish high school, one tried college, dropped it. Both got married, had kids, several grand nieces nephews made it trough college in fits and starts. They are all doing well.

Edit add: Regards telling little/young ones, how/what, I don't. I show by my life example, tell stories if asked for. I might explain if asked, how I would handle/do something. Motto:if you listen to me, you'll do it your way. It is your life, you will live with the consequences.
 
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I went to school in Europe and we had something kinda similar. We had a national exam after junior high. Those who passed could go on to high school (where you were required to start specializing in either liberal arts, economics, physical sciences or natural sciences in your second year), those who failed where directed to a vocational or "professional" high school where they would learn a craft (plumbing, electrics, woodworking, etc...). We had another national exam after high school and depending on the score (and high school grades), you would be directed either towards a public university, a prestigious college, or a "technical" school (2-year degree).
 
FIREdreamer said:
I went to school in Europe and we had something kinda similar. We had a national exam after junior high. Those who passed could go on to high school (where you were required to start specializing in either liberal arts, economics, physical sciences or natural sciences in your second year), those who failed where directed to a vocational or "professional" high school where they would learn a craft (plumbing, electrics, woodworking, etc...). We had another national exam after high school and depending on the score (and high school grades), you would be directed either towards a public university, a prestigious college, or a "technical" school (2-year degree).
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So if you were having kind of a bad year your last year of junior high (for emotional or whatever reasons) - you could end up a mechanic rather than an engineer?

I'm curious as to your opinion of the system you describe?
 
Texarkandy said:
So if you were having kind of a bad year your last year of junior high (for emotional or whatever reasons) - you could end up a mechanic rather than an engineer?

I'm curious as to your opinion of the system you describe?
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Indeed, a bad year (either in junior high or high school) can have a huge impact on your future. There is a bit of leeway though. In some circumstances, if your teachers think that you have potential but underperformed for whatever reason, they can give you a second chance. In that case you can redo your senior year and try the national exam again at the end of that year. If your grades were never very good though and you fail the exam, they will likely direct you to a vocational/professional/technical school.

The (public) school system I attended was pretty competitive. Class rankings were very important because only the top 10% could hope to attend the best schools, so early on (5th grade for me) we were taught to constantly vie for the top spot. Even the college that I attended published class ranking to stimulate school wide competition. Where I went to school, being a "nerd" was not an insult, it was a compliment. What about people who can't compete? They are usually redirected towards alternative curriculums pretty early on. So each child's curriculum is matched to his/her abilities based on the realization that not everyone is destined to attend an ivy league school. It may sound shocking because Americans believe that all children, no matter how able, should be given the same opportunities in a public school system. Which system is better? I don't know. What I know is that, in my school system, I was always competing against the best. That, I believe, is a huge plus. Of course it can be a bitter experience for the people who get side-tracked along the way, though I found that people seem happier when they find something they can truly excel at. If math is not your thing but carpentry is, what is the point of wasting away in high school when you could learn a valuable and fulfilling craft instead? Plus, by staying in HS, you would divert resources away from people who really need them and slow everybody down. It may sound cruel, but it's true.

I have 2 cousins. School was real torture for them. I mean they really, really struggled. After junior high they were directed to vocational schools. One became an electrician, the other one a carpenter. They are now both successful in their own rights and I don't think they regret for even one moment skipping high school.

But I am sure there are some broken dreams along the way. I almost got side-tracked myself. Here is a little story:
I was a straight A student in junior high and the first 2 years of high school. Then my parents divorced and I was a bit messed up for my last 2 years of high school and my grades slipped. My goal had always been to be admitted to an elite college but based on my grades many of my teachers refused to write me important letters of recommendation. They recommended that I lowered my expectations and either applied to a public university or a technical school. I persevered nonetheless, cleaned up my act and I got a very good grade on the national exam which allowed me to be accepted in both an elite business school and an elite engineering school. I chose the engineering school from which I graduated near the top of my class with a double major, then went on to a US university where I got my Ph.D. in 4 years with a 4.0 GPA. So those 2 subpar years of high school could have cost me dearly, and I could have ended up a mechanic rather then an engineer indeed. But if I had attended high school in the US, I guess 2 years worth of so-so grades would also have damaged my higher education prospects... So I don't know if it's that different.
 
I do think the accomplishments and exam results playing important roles in higher education placement is good. Weeds out a lot of the those "taking up space" attendees cluttering classes.

I do recall when I made it to college, there were far too many sitting in classes on "special admission" and tuition assistance, sitting in classes with headphones on, listening some music instead of paying attention or participating in class.

Being "full fare freddie" paying my own way at full tuition, had several of these deadwoods removed from classes I was taking. Money talks, even to academic deans.
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Also recall one required English class, where after the first class, went to see the prof, (she was an ex-nun with double Phd) teaching the class and said to her: I have never seen this many disinterested, unmotivated bunch of people in my life, I am dropping the class.

To her credit, after discussion with the academic dean, she prepared an individual curriculum, approved by the various department heads/deans. I ended up busting my butt to complete it, it was far more difficult than sitting through the regular class. But got a B+ out of it. Was it worth the extra work? darn right it was.

I was going to school to learn, not to play graba$$.
 
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