403(b), 457, SEP IRA, Roth IRA

bank5

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
357
I'm eligible for the following retirement accounts:
401k, 403b, 457, Roth IRA, Sep IRA

What is the max I can contribute to each account (I'm under 50)? My understanding is:
401k + 403b -- $16.5k/yr
457 - $16.5k/yr
Roth - $5k/yr
Sep IRA - ~20% of my net SE income

Is that correct? Is there a website that lists the maximum contribution amounts for all of ones retirement accounts
 
Lucky so-and-so. We read about you people in our CFP courses. :) Watch the income upper limits on that Roth. Nice going though, bank5!
 

Thanks for the link. What I'm specifically looking for is a website that lists accounts that are (for lack of a better term) "mutually exclusive". For example, I'd consider a traditional IRA and Roth IRA mutually exclusive because one can contribute $5k to one or the other but not $5k to each one.
 
Lucky so-and-so. We read about you people in our CFP courses. :) Watch the income upper limits on that Roth. Nice going though, bank5!

Well, I haven't been able to max them all out yet, but I'm hoping to at some point :) My wife and I are fortunate to have 2 1/2 pretty good jobs so we're trying to sock a lot away early, especially if kids are in our future.
 
Lucky so-and-so. We read about you people in our CFP courses. :) Watch the income upper limits on that Roth. Nice going though, bank5!

Have you come across this little twist on the limits?

The question is, does money earned and deposited in a 403b also count as "earned income" for Roth IRA contributions for both earner and spouse? Example:

Say the wage earner makes $20,000 in a year, and contributes $16.5k to a 403b. This is the only earned income between wage earner and spouse. Can both the wage earner and spouse also make a $5,000 Roth IRA contribution (10K total) in that year?

TaxAct didn't complain, you need $10,000 of earned income to make a combined $10K Roth IRA contribution, and the earned income on a W2 supports that. But it seems a bit odd to me that a total of $26.5K was contributed, with only $20,000 of earned income ( the Roth IRA money obviously came out of our portfolio).

The 403b is a Roth 403b, if that makes a difference (I don't think so).


TIA for any light you can shine on this, it bugs me. It's clearly an uncommon circumstance, but not really convoluted - I already have a lot of Trad IRA $, I want to (tax) diversify as much as I can into Roths (including Trad>Roth conversions when they make sense), so I'm just trying to max things out. When I've asked here before, I think Martha suggested I ask for an "IRS ruling" on it. I guess, but it just seems odd to me that a taxpayer, acting within what appears to be the allowed rules would need anymore clarification than what is in the instruction sheet.

-ERD50

edit - bank5's "mutually exclusive" term fits well (saw it after I posted)
 
Let me work on this, guys. I think I have a person who can help with this that is an actuary. I see exactly what you are asking, I just don't know about how it counts as earned income.

The ones that are exclusive to each other are the 401k and the 403b. The 457 can be added to either one. The Roth and Trad total contributions can't be more than the total for one (ie, $5000), but you could put, say, half into the Roth and half into the traditional, as long as you were within the Roth limits.

The SEP is really where I have a question, though, as it isn't one that I fool with very often.

And yes, it is fairly rare to have an employment situation that offers all of these differing plans to the same individual. It is a favorite of the CFP board to ask about, but not very likely in "real life".
 
The 401k + SEP have a combined limit of $49,000. That includes the $16,500 and 20/25% of SE income.
 
I suggest reading publication 560, it helps a lot in determining your maximum contributions. Publication 560 (2008), Retirement Plans for Small Business

As Sarah says, the Roth and traditional IRA contributions have to be coordinated--there is one total maximum. She also mentioned that the 457 plan does not effect the amount you may contribute to other plans. The sticklers are the 403b, 401k and SEP IRA.

The following article describes in plain English how to calculate retirement contributions when you have more than one employer or are self employed and employed: Common Questions About Retirement Plans

You can make salary-deferral contributions of up to $16,500 plus an additional catch-up amount of $5500 if you reach age 50 by Dec 31, 2009. This amount can be split among multiple retirement plans in which you participate, provided your aggregate salary-deferral contributions to all the plans do not exceed $16500 plus catch-up. Employer contributions are not counted towards these limits and the employers do not have to coordinate their contributions.

The SEP IRA will have a 20 or 25% maximum. If you end up contributing $16,500 to a 401k at work, to calculate your SEP I believe that you will have to take into account this contribution. Say you are eligible to contribute the maximum of $49,000 to the SEP. You must deduct the 16,500 you contributed to the 401k so your max under the SEP would be $32,500. The nice thing is that you do not have to deduct what your employers contributed to the 401k and 403b. EDIT: I retract what I said about the SEP limits.

This does get complicated so read publication 560. And read my signature.
 
Last edited:
Thanks all for the help. That helps clarify things a bit. My SEP contribution will only be a couple thousand so I won't have to worry about reaching the $49k limit for my 403b + SEP.
 
bank5 unless you go over 16.5 k I think you will be okay ... others here will point out if I am wrong so take it with a grain of salt...
 
+1 to what Martha and eridanus stated. I have a 403b, 401a, SEP IRA and traditional IRA. My employer contributes to the 401a, I contribute to the 403b and have self employment income that goes to the SEP IRA and must stay below the $49k limit.

DD
 
bank5 has been asking the same question since he joined the forum many moons ago.

Your employee contribution of $16,500 to 401(k)+403(b)+SEP-IRA is mutually exclusive in the same way that your $5,000 contribution to traditional+Roth IRAS is mutually exclusive.

Your employer contribution to your 401(k)+403(b)+SEP-IRA is not mutually exclusive. Apparently your employer's contribution to your SEP-IRA is now limited by your income.

Questions: Is the employer-contribution limit to the SEP-IRA actually $49,000 - $16,500? Or is the employer contribution limit $49,000 when the employee contributes $0?

Note: we understand who the employer is for a self-employed person.

The $16,500 to the 457 is all by itself.
 
bank5 has been asking the same question since he joined the forum many moons ago.

I thought it sounded familiar.

Your employee contribution of $16,500 to 401(k)+403(b)+SEP-IRA is mutually exclusive in the same way that your $5,000 contribution to traditional+Roth IRAS is mutually exclusive.
We agree.

Your employer contribution to your 401(k)+403(b)+SEP-IRA is not mutually exclusive. Apparently your employer's contribution to your SEP-IRA is now limited by your income.

Questions: Is the employer-contribution limit to the SEP-IRA actually $49,000 - $16,500? Or is the employer contribution limit $49,000 when the employee contributes $0?

Note: we understand who the employer is for a self-employed person.
Are you asking about whether you could have a situation where your employer contributes to a SEP and you do not so you don't have to reduce the contribution by your 401k or 403b contributions? And does this apply if you are your own employer? My understanding is that if you are self employed you must coordinate the SEP contribution with your employee deferral 401k contributions and reduce it accordingly. EDIT: I am changing my position on this because the SEP is entirely employer contribution even if you are the employer. As I figured out later, the SEP is limited by any and all 403b contributions but you could have a 401k through a job and still contribute the max to a SEP.
The $16,500 to the 457 is all by itself.
We agree.
 
Last edited:
Here's the scenario:

Suppose I am employed by a university/government hospital. I contribute from my salary $16,500 to the 403(b) and $16,500 to the 457. In addition to this income, I have a side business that makes $300K a year. I am the sole employee. Can I put $49K into my SEP-IRA or am I limited to putting only $32.5K into my SEP-IRA?
 
Here's the scenario:

Suppose I am employed by a university/government hospital. I contribute from my salary $16,500 to the 403(b) and $16,500 to the 457. In addition to this income, I have a side business that makes $300K a year. I am the sole employee. Can I put $49K into my SEP-IRA or am I limited to putting only $32.5K into my SEP-IRA?
Post the salary, and I'll run this through Intuit Proseries.
 
target2019,

Since the hypothetical does not apply to me, I will make up a salary.
Suppose at work I make $85,000 and my side job is a pure consulting activity where I go to a customer site, look at their business plan and say, "Yes, it's a good plan" and charge them $300,000 plus my travel expenses of $1000. I submit the travel expense receipt to them and get a check for $301,000 and a 1099MISC for $300,000.
 
target2019,

Since the hypothetical does not apply to me, I will make up a salary.
Suppose at work I make $85,000 and my side job is a pure consulting activity where I go to a customer site, look at their business plan and say, "Yes, it's a good plan" and charge them $300,000 plus my travel expenses of $1000. I submit the travel expense receipt to them and get a check for $301,000 and a 1099MISC for $300,000.
Just did more research to confirm the following (also seen on the computer form): The 401(k) is not related to the SEP-IRA question, unless the employers have a business connection. All 2008 limits are used here.

The maximum 2008 SEP-IRA contribution is $46K, computed from a max cap of 230,000. The max 2009 number is $49K, computed from 245,000 cap.

If you put your email in a private message to me, I will email a pdf of the worksheet.
 
Last edited:
I have thought about the SEP IRA issue and the section 402g limits on voluntary contributions to the 401k and 403b. I think publication 560 is muddy and I am changing my mind but I am not absolutely sure. As LOL said, the SEP is entirely employer contribution, even if you are both the employee and employer. Essentially, it is profit sharing. Because that is the case a person who has both a 401k and a SEP as a self employed person should not have to deduct the 16,500 max employee contribution from the SEP contribution and should be able to do the maximum.

But I am not comfortable with my answer without reading the regs. Target, do you have a source for your position? I do agree that the answer is different if they are related business entities.
 
Last edited:
So, this is where I am coming down. LOL and Target, feel free to point out any issues:

The Investopedia article I linked above says:

Say you earn $200,000 from your employer and that your employer's 401(k) plan includes a profit-sharing feature, which is a type of defined contribution. You can receive up to $49,000 (for 2009) to your 401(k) )/profit-sharing plan, which can consist of your salary-deferral contributions and employer contributions, such as profit-sharing and matching contributions.

Additionally, because the rules for the annual-addition amounts apply separately to each plan, the contributions to the retirement plan you adopt for your business can be up to $49,000, making your aggregate contribution limit $98,000, plus an additional $5,500 if you reach age 50 by year-end 2009. Bear in mind that the employer contributions
, such as profit-sharing contributions, to the plan you adopt for your business are limited to 25% of W-2 wages you pay yourself if your business is incorporated, or 20% of your modified net profit if your business is a sole proprietorship or partnership, plus salary-deferral contributions. Additionally, your aggregate contributions (employer and salary deferral) to the plan you adopt for your business should not exceed 100% of the compensation you receive from your business.

The rules regarding contribution limits for multiple plans for multiple businesses are different if the businesses have a common ownership or affiliation. In such cases, individuals must consult with a competent tax professional or plan administrator to determine the applicable rules.

(note that I am talking about aggregate limitations, not employee deferral limits. Those limits are also well described in the Investopedia article:

However, salary-deferral contributions are generally limited to a single aggregate amount for the year. For instance, for tax year 2009, you can make salary-deferral contributions of up to $16,500 plus an additional catch-up amount of $5,500 if you reach age 50 by December 31, 2009. This amount can be split among multiple retirement plans in which you participate, provided your aggregate salary-deferral contributions to all the plans do not exceed $16,500 plus catch-up.)

So, say you have a job with a 401k. You max your contribution at $16,500. Your employer also does the max so the total contribution is $49,000.

You also have an unrelated consulting business and have a profit of$ 400,000. Your max SEP is $49,000. You can max out the SEP, with total retirement contributions now at $98,000.

You made too much money for a Roth and can't do a deductible IRA.

This assumes none of the businesses are related and assume you don't have any ownership interest in the 401k provider. That could change the answer.



Say you added yet another job at the local college which has a 403b. You would not be able to contribute any voluntary contributions because under 402g you maxed that out on your employee contribution to the 401k of $16,500. But could your employer could make contributions even though you already have $98,000 in retirement accounts for the year, including in a SEP?




I am getting muddied up somewhat. Section 415 places limits on how much can be contributed to a plan ($49,000 this year for SEP, 401k, 403b. . .) I quoted the Investopedia article which discussed your ability to have several plans through different employers each maxing out that limit. When do these totals have to be coordinated? The above examples were all for unrelated businesses.

For example, http://www.benefits.umich.edu/plans/retire/irc415.html describes two situations for the university of Michigan:

Example #1: Physician with Private Practice
Lisa is a physician who works for the University of Michigan and contributes to the U-M Retirement Plan. Lisa also is the sole owner of a private practice. If she is making contributions to a qualified retirement plan through her private practice, she needs to report information on those contributions to the U-M Benefits Office. The Benefits Office will then calculate the contributions being made through both plans to ensure the Section 415(c) limit is not exceeded.




Example #2: New Hire Employee
Marie begins working for U-M in September 2009. From January through August of 2009 she worked at a college that provided $30,000 in employer 403(b) contributions. She also made $10,000 in 403(b) contributions to that plan. Marie must aggregate the $40,000 in total 403(b) contributions made through her previous employer with her 403(b) contributions made to the U-M Retirement Plan. Marie needs to report the information on those contributions to the U-M Benefits Office in order to ensure the Section 415(c) limit is not exceeded between both employers.



The second situation is easy. But what about the first?
 
Last edited:
OK, I am Galting but I think that I am getting somewhere. Reading section 415 I read it as the need to only aggregate contributions made by one employer. Just like 402g aggregates all your employee contributions. But it looks like there is yet another rule in section 415 which provides that the 403(b) participant's employer includes any business of which you have more than 50% control. That provision seems to require the SEP-IRA 415 maximum be combined with the 403(b) because both plans are deemed maintained by the same employer.

So, back to my summary, this is now where I am coming down:

1. You have a job. You do not own any interest in the employer. The employer has a 401k. You max out your contribution at 16,500. The employer maxes out the match and profit sharing so the total contributions for the year are $49,000.

2. You have a side business as a solo proprietor. Your profits are $400,000. You max out a SEP and contribute $49,000. Now you have a total for the year contributed to retirement plans of $98,000.

3. You take another job that has a 403b. No contributions can be made because you maxed out the SEP.

Please people, don't take any of this as legal advice.
 
Last edited:
OK, suppose you have no 401(k), but you got that 403(b) and a side job.

You contribute $16,500 to your 403(b) and your employer matches $2,500 for a total of $19,000. I guess that means that your SEP-IRA can get $30,000 if your side job profits allow it?

And you still can contribute $16,500 to the 457 regardless.
 
Back
Top Bottom